Episode 8: Lily Zhang

When I was 8 years old I dreamt of becoming an astronaut or paleontologist one day.  Depending on her mood, my eldest daughter who is 8, has told me she would like to be a dancer, an olympic gymnast, a doctor or a surfer. If you think back to what you thought you would become at the same age, it was more likely than not, a far cry from what you’re actually doing today. 

My next guest, Lily Zhang, was not this way!

She knew from a very early age that she loved playing Table Tennis. Growing up in America as a descendent of Chinese immigrants, Lily was exposed to TT as a child and felt a deep calling. Her pursuit of play elevated her to the highest levels when she was barely a teenager. TT originated in Victorian England and became an Olympic sport in 1988. Though not widely adopted in the USA, it is a hugely popular and competitive sport in Asian and European countries. 

Lily’s story is intriguing to me because she has literally come of age under constant stress and pressure through her competitive prowess. To have represented the USA three times in the Olympics before the age of 25, pioneer elite level play in an emergent country, and be a role model for young girls around the world who share the same dream makes her one extraordinary young woman. I jokingly refer to her “iron will” because nothing ever seems to phase her - she gracefully smiles and giggles off any hint of struggle. 

If all of these tremendous experiences occurred in the first quarter of her life, what on earth will the future hold?? 

Her commitment to her internal passion is admirable while also being completely relatable. Makes me wonder what we’re all capable of when we choose ourselves first.

Full Transcript:

Emily Kwok:
Welcome to The Master & The Apprentice where we explore the path from apprenticeship to mastery. And today with me, I have a really amazing guest who I've had the pleasure of getting to know recently. She is ranked number 30 in the world in the amazing sport of table tennis. She is sponsored by JOOLA Global. She's also a three time Olympian. I think that beats just about everybody else I've interviewed, five time national champion, and she's also a UC Berkeley grad. Today I have with me, Lily Zhang, who is an extraordinarily bright and young table tennis player. And I've just been incredibly impressed by this young woman and her path to, I'm going to say global domination, I could be wrong, but welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me, Lily.

Lily Zhang:
Hi, Emily. Thank you so much for having me.

Emily Kwok:
I'd love to paint a picture for anyone that may be listening. And particularly for those of us that are not from your background in the sport of table tennis, can you speak a little bit about what has drawn you to the sport and when you began and why you decided to pursue it?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I started playing when I was seven years old and my parents say they both come from China. So table tennis and China is like their national sport. It's equivalent to baseball or basketball here in the US. So pretty much everyone plays there. So when they came to the US, they like to play for fun and then they introduced it to me when I was a child as well. I remember my first time starting was, my dad was a professor at Stanford so when we used to go do laundry, they had a ping pong table just by the side to kill time. So I remember just playing with them there for fun. And I did all the other, I guess, you could say like stereotypical Asian activities.

Emily Kwok:
Which might be, did you play piano and go to ballet as well?

Lily Zhang:
It was violin actually.

Emily Kwok:
Okay.

Lily Zhang:
And I had like math camp or I did a lot of math exercises with my dad.

Emily Kwok:
Sounds like fun. That sounds like real fun.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah, totally. Chinese fan dancing, any Asian stereotypical activity you can think of, I did. And then once they introduced table tennis to me, that was a game changer because I fell in love with the sport way more than anything else I was doing at the time. And so my parents gave me a choice like, if you want to continue pursuing table tennis in lieu of the other activities you can. And so I just was all in for table tennis and then I started taking it more seriously when I was, I want to say like eight or nine and the rest is history, I guess.

Emily Kwok:
Wow. So this is interesting. Now let me ask you, were you allowed to potentially keep pursuing table tennis because it was a traditional Asian activity like if it was hockey, would your parents have been just as willing or was it because it was one of these previously approved Eastern Asian hobbies?

Lily Zhang:
I think you know the answer to that one, they were not big fans of other sports. I used to really love soccer as a kid as well, but I just think in their minds they were worried because it's more of a contact sport. They were worried about me getting injured and since table tennis is something they love as well and quite a safe sport, they were pretty encouraging. And it's a good thing I fell in love with it as well because, yeah, here I am now.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Let me ask you a bit about that because that's fascinating to me. How did you know at that age it was something that you loved? What did that love feel like? And then on the back end of that question, I'm also curious to know culturally, it is a huge sport, right? And I grew up in Richmond which is a very heavily Asian populated part of the lower mainland of Vancouver and they not only like table tennis, but I also noticed that badminton was a big thing. So a lot of small racket sports. So outside of what made you love it so much, I'm also curious to know culturally, what do you think draws people to it because there's a lot of people in China and they all like playing these rackets sports.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. That's very true. I just remember as a kid when I was playing with my parents it was purely for fun. It was just wildly hitting the ball around as hard as I could. But I remember my friend at the time whose dad was also really great friends with my parents, he was the one who brought her to a local table tennis club. And she begged me to go with her as well. So when I went and I first saw what real table tennis was, how fast it was and how intense people really are and how physical of the sport it is, I just immediately was drawn to it. And obviously I can't speak for everyone and for Asian culture, but I do feel like in China, at least, a lot of people are drawn to more of the rack sports because I just feel like there's a lot more minute details in it. Table tennis is so detailed and specific, literally any change of spin or speed or placement can drastically change the entire course of the game. So that's also why I love it.

Emily Kwok:
Oh, really?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah.

Emily Kwok:
So you like the fine motor skill and attention to detail?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I think it makes everything a lot more interesting.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. It's really interesting to me because when you think about sports that are traditionally popular in North America, or I'll even just say America because that's the country we're in right now, I get heavier sports in the sense that you have games like football and basketball and hockey and soccer and gymnastics. And these are very overtly physically powerful mediums and my background is in Brazilian jujutsu and when I've been able to observe you guys play at a high level in table tennis, my eyes get tired. It's amazing. [crosstalk 00:07:46]. Yeah. But it's amazing how dynamic and quick and delicate, delicate, but so powerful the sport is and it's culturally very different I think from what we might see as we generally value in North America.

Emily Kwok:
And so I find that aspect really, really, really interesting because I enjoy immersing myself and learning to appreciate things on that level because I grew up with a fine arts background. And so I certainly appreciate a fine line and getting into the little nooks and crannies, but to see it expressed in such a physical fashion is fascinating to me. When I've tried to play, it's also really frustrating because it is so dynamic and bouncy, it just pops all over the place and it is fun and it is addictive. And so when you were a child, you're talking like eight or nine years old, was it difficult for you to wrap your head around practicing and refining because it's such a fun pickup sport. What made you feel like this was something you actually wanted to be disciplined about?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I remember when I first started, it was just like once a week at the club. So it was like 30 minutes and then you also stand in line with 10 kids and play three balls at one time. So it was not much at all, but I do remember the coach in particular taking a liking to me and then after junior training she would always come up and try to teach me more things. And then as I slowly started to get better and better and started to refine the skills, I realized that this is something that I could actually be really good at. And then I think when I was nine years old, we went to my first US Nationals in Vegas and it was just like a family vacation for fun trip with my parents and my sister. And just literally I had no goals, no aspirations then at all, but I ended up... I don't know how, but I accidentally ended up making the U-15 team, national team.

Emily Kwok:
Accidentally? I don't think that happens by accident.

Lily Zhang:
I really wasn't trying, not to humble brag, but it just wasn't in my vision at that time. But once I made the team, it became something real to me and a possibility that I could really do well in the future and even make the junior women's and then Olympic team. So I think that's when it really hit me.

Emily Kwok:
It's funny because I think you and I have talked a little bit about what expectations do and that sometimes when we're talking about performance, it can feel better to not have any expectations. So therefore we don't set expectations so that we don't have to feel the pressure of not meeting the bar or hitting the bar. Would you say at that time in your life, it was more of a naive experience where you were just like, hey, this is cool, let's see what happens and if I keep doing this like did it feel that free to you?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I think it did in the very beginning just because it was something that I stumbled upon and not something that was really pushed upon or forced upon me, that it was very naive and going in with zero expectations, I think did help me. And it's something, I think you know as well, but that I struggle with now trying to find that balance between not having too high of expectations for myself and putting too much pressure on myself to the point where it becomes detrimental to my game, but also finding the belief that I can win or I can't do well. So yeah, it's something that I'm still very much trying to find.

Emily Kwok:
We're all figuring out.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah.

Emily Kwok:
We're all figuring out. That's the mystery of life. So when you're learning at this stage in your life, you're still a child. And the other thing I've started to understand and learn about table tennis is also that similar to, I think, this sport that I come from which is Brazilian jujutsu, it's not exactly the most... I guess, culturally there are both sports that come from other countries. So there's been a little bit of adjustment and acclimatization to cultural values and how these sports might fit into the United States, but they're not the most widely recognized or supported sports. So whereas you look at something like gymnastics and there's US Olympic level gymnastics, and then there's different types of recreational categories you can either train or compete in and then of course you have small programs that pop up at community centers all the way up to professional level gyms.

Emily Kwok:
I think jujutsu and table tennis are at this level of, I don't know, evolution or maturity where it's still growing and we don't necessarily have the same levels of support built into our development as some of these other more well recognized and gentrified sports. So as a child, when you're learning this, how did you learn? I'm going to imagine that there were small pockets of places where you had access to coaches and training, but what did that look like for you at that age? And when did it become more serious? When did you start devoting more time to it? More meaning like did it disrupt your life as a kid?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I think I was really lucky enough to have lived in the Bay Area. As you said, table tennis is not a hugely supported sport in the US and not many people play professionally, at least. A lot of people play for fun or recreationally, but there weren't too many places where there were real professional table tennis clubs, but the Bay Area is actually one of the hot spots in the US for table tennis. So there were a few local clubs around. And for me, even though my parents played for fun, I think one of the most defining factors was that a lot of my closest friends, they played as well. And it was something that I wanted to just join in and socialize and just be a kid, I guess. So, yeah, I started when my friend first took me to the club and then I started getting more serious when another friend of mine, she opened up... They had a storage room or area that they rented and then her family dedicated that specifically just to table tennis, they hired a full time coach and then I just hopped in.

Emily Kwok:
That's pretty hardcore.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah.

Emily Kwok:
That's pretty hardcore. Now the thing that always makes me laugh about you, Lily, is for the audience that has not seen what Lily Zhang looks like. She's this beautiful, bright, nonviolent, little thing who, for all intensive purpose, she reminds me of a cute animal, but inside this animal is some iron will and it's astounding to me how... I can't even list all the different titles and accolades that you've won because there's so many, but you are a silent killer. You go in there with some iron will. And so I've got to imagine when you're a child and you're playing amongst your friends, did they recognize at that age that you were pretty serious about this?

Lily Zhang:
First of all, thank you, Emily. I'm blushing a little bit, but-

Emily Kwok:
No one will ever know what is inside Lily Zhang.

Lily Zhang:
It's a secret forever. I don't know. I think as I started to get better, then the people, the friends around me as well, they were also improving. And then it became friendly competition, but I think we all had that inner drive and motivation because there's another girl, Ariel, who I think I've told you about, but we really grew up together in the sport. And she was like my main competitor and rival throughout childhood until college pretty much. And so if you think I have a lot of inner drive, she's like the blueprint for that, in my opinion. She was the hardest worker I've ever known.

Emily Kwok:
Really? More hardworking than you?

Lily Zhang:
Honestly, yeah. I would give it to her. It hurts me a little bit to say, but she-

Emily Kwok:
Well, I'm glad we can be honest.

Lily Zhang:
It's true. We were-

Emily Kwok:
I recognize that. I caught a little bit of... If you're listening to this and you're curious about learning more about the sport of table tennis and also just gaining some insight into this time in her life. There's a great little documentary on, I think it was Paramount Plus that I watched called Top Spin and it details your relationship quite a bit. And that too is an interesting relationship because you are not only friends, but then you're also rivals. And you're also at an age in life where you're learning all about how to be friends and how to navigate boundaries. So that must have been a pretty complex relationship.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. It was definitely a very interesting dynamic between us. I think honestly we were the definition of frenemies because every single tournament, every single event, it was me and her in the finals whether it was under 15, under 18, under 21 women's, it was just constantly me and her and she would always win. She would win, I think I never beat her until I was 16. So I had such a huge mental block with her. And then also we would go out to tournaments together as part of the national team. And so we would work together, be on the same team, have fun, and I remember having some of my best memories with her actually and we would really enjoy our time together, but then as soon as it's on the table, it was a whole nother story. So it was a really interesting, I think, stage of my life.

Emily Kwok:
When you think about what you guys worked through together... So I think at a higher level and maybe where you're living more now and maybe we're also living then, I think high level performers will tend to say, I'm always looking to raise the bar for myself, right? So you're always thinking about how to improve what it is that you are doing, what your process is, you're trying to see if you can beat the record or the boundary that you've set in the past. When you have that kind of a relationship with a teammate, a peer, is your journey still your own? How much of your growth, how much of your desire to perform well and to win was your own versus externalized? Was it an internal battle or was it an external battle because you were focusing so much on like I want to beat her.

Lily Zhang:
That's a great question because I really think that growing up, the battle was very external and it just became trying to be each other. And obviously that was a huge motivation. And I think I improved a lot just because of that, but as I've grown older, it's been trying to move away from that external goal and then trying to find my inner goals and trying to improve myself and what that looks like, but growing up, it was really just-

Emily Kwok:
Beat her.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. Exactly. To put it simply.

Emily Kwok:
I must beat her. So like in jujutsu we have this funny practice that not everybody agrees with. It doesn't seem to me table tennis is quite as tribal, but in jujutsu it often happens at the highest levels and it's a shame, you grew up thinking, oh, this is the way. And then when you get to that higher level you're like maybe this shouldn't be the way, but there's a common practice because in jujutsu, you generally come from a lineage. So it's like a very team and tribal energy that people bring to these large tournaments. And so if you end up in the finals or even in qualifying rounds, if you end up facing off against an opponent who is actually a teammate or someone that is part of the same team, maybe you don't practice with them as regularly, they will often ask you, the heads of these associations will ask you to defer fighting them.

Emily Kwok:
So instead of fighting them, it's whoever has the most seniority or whoever won the last tournament, there's all these different metrics and ways of deciding who should advance in the round. But a lot of the times in jujutsu it's become part of the culture to not fight your teammates, to not confront. What do you think about that? What do you think it's taught you to have to face off against a peer and a teammate time and time again? So many times like you said, she was your arch nemesis and there was a huge mental block, but I have to imagine that something was also learned from that experience.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. That's really interesting. I had no idea that the Brazilian jujutsu work like that. For me, yeah, it was really tough to constantly have to play her and fight her every single time, but I do think I learned a lot from the experience, trying to separate playing on the table versus personal life or off the table and trying to disconnect those two and put everything during the match and then try not to take that away after, but it was very hard for me to be able to differentiate between the two.

Emily Kwok:
Was that an internal process? Did you have other teammates or did you have coaches or I don't know, family members, maybe siblings. Did you have people to help you process what you were going through? Because I have to imagine as a teenager, especially when you're... Girls are so mean to each other and we're so manipulative, right? That's our secret power is how do we manipulate the crap out of everybody around us when we're teenagers and as you're discovering your manipulative power and then here you are having to face off against this person in a competitive way, how do you navigate or negotiate what you're feeling internally? Because there's a lot of layers to what you did. So did you have a confidant or have you had a companion or someone that's helped you process that?

Lily Zhang:
Honestly, growing up I didn't because I remember feeling actually very... This is a weird dynamic, but I remember feeling very alone because once you get to that level and it's just us two at the highest level, right? So I felt like there was really no one, even if I had friends, there was no one who really could understand what I was going through, but at the same time, my other teammate, Ariel, she was going through the same thing as I was. So I remember sometimes we had these really weird vulnerable moments with each other where we would open up a little bit and then she would share that she was feeling really down and stressed and nervous and had a lot of pressure put upon her. And I was like, oh, yeah, I feel the same. And then the next second we would close that and be like hoping the other one would not make to the finals or something. It was really weird.

Emily Kwok:
That's a pretty vulnerable state to be in, right? To share your insecurities with your rival, right? Because normally when we're put in those kinds of confrontational circumstances, we think about what we can lord over somebody's head. So I can imagine as much as you're seeking out support and companionship, you also have something running in the back of your mind like, oh, no, I've told her something really deep and secret about myself and she's going to use it against me.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. Both of us had that internal conflict, but at the same time, it's also that need for human connection. And I think we were the only two people who really knew what we were going through.

Emily Kwok:
Wow. You guys both qualified for the Olympics at a very young age as well, is that right?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah, she qualified when she was 16 and I was 15.

Emily Kwok:
Damn girl, 15 going to the Olympics. What was that like?

Lily Zhang:
Honestly, it was insane. It was really a surreal moment in my life. And to be quite honest, I feel like I blacked out half of the experience just because I was so overwhelmed.

Emily Kwok:
Wow.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. There are some really distinct moments that I remember like right before my first match, I was warming up. I was feeling okay and then right before we were supposed to walk out, I peeked behind the curtains just to get a quick look at the venue. And the whole stadium was completely packed with people and I don't think I've ever seen table tennis on that scale before. I've been to basketball games and football games where the huge stadium is packed, but table tennis, to see that for table tennis was so new to me. And I think that was a really amazing moment just to be in that and just to feel that, but at the same time I got really nervous. I remember going out on court and my hands were just shaking. I couldn't stop. I couldn't control my body.

Emily Kwok:
That's amazing.

Lily Zhang:
But yeah, it was really awesome.

Emily Kwok:
How do you find yourself dealing with things like nerves? I was recently listening to an older, I guess, it is not that old, but I was listening to a Joe Rogan podcast with Valentina Shevchenko who's a very brutally beautiful and celebrated fighter in the UFC. And she was talking about what it had taken for her to get into the UFC and how. She said, North American fighters, they fight six or seven pro fights and then they get a path into the UFC, but me coming from the outside I had to do a lot more and I had to fight in so many more places and really show on so many levels that I deserve to be amongst the best. And she was saying, I don't regret that because in some ways now that I'm fighting against the best of the best, I know that I'm emotionally prepared like I know that I'm ready to fight at that level.

Emily Kwok:
And you can see when other fighters come in, when they don't have that depth or that maturity and the pressure of just being there, the lights, the pressure of fighting on that stage really shakes them. And she goes, it doesn't bother me. It doesn't phase me. So she's like, I'm not upset that I took the long route because of what it's taught me. You did so much of this as a child, how do you think that has shaped you? You've talked a little bit about the fact that you didn't know what you didn't know and you're going through it, but you've now been an Olympian three times. So you've played on whether or not table tennis is a hugely recognized sport in America. You have played on a stage that is recognized by the world. How does that put competition for you in context now? And what has it felt like to essentially mature on that stage?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I think having those opportunities as a child and at such a young definitely had a huge impact on my playing career. I was really lucky to be able to start traveling internationally when I was, I think, 10 or 11 years old. So being put on the biggest stage of the world in my sport was really important because I feel like you just learn a lot through experience and setbacks are inevitable. So you go through those losses in those important moments, but being able to just come back and bounce back and still find success later, I think builds a lot of resilience and grit. And then when you're in the next important moment, you know that you've overcome some of the hardest matches of your life. And I think that just brings a lot of confidence and belief that you're able to get through the really hard moments that a lot of other people may not have experienced.

Emily Kwok:
If you're willing to share, what are some of the more challenging things that you had to overcome? Maybe things that you didn't think you could overcome in the moment, but because of the habitual work pattern you'd already invested your yourself in, you were able to come out and see the other side.

Lily Zhang:
I think one of my most vivid memories was actually the 2012 US Olympic Trials or North American Olympic Trials where we had four US players and four Canadian players. And since one Canadian player had already qualified for her country, that meant that... So basically how the Olympics works is that not both Canada and US can go, only one of the countries can go as a team, so since she already qualified-

Emily Kwok:
Which I think is bonkers. When you told this to me I was like, what?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. It's already hard enough, why do they have to make it harder? It should be all inclusive. Anyway, since she already qualified, she already took one of those spots. So any one of those other Canadian players won the trials, then they would get to go as a team and only we wouldn't have a team for the Olympics. So it's just that much harder on us. And so I remember the first day we had three separate "tournaments" for that trial. So the winner of the first day would go, the winner of the second day would go, and then the third player, the next highest rank player would go as a team, if that makes any sense. I remember the first day I lost to... I played this Canadian defensive player, she's a chopper and I'm normally really bad against that style because I've never gotten very much practice and I don't have much patience as well.

Emily Kwok:
You really?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I have some flaws.

Emily Kwok:
You're always so poised.

Lily Zhang:
So I had lost to her that day and it was a really, really close match and a really tough match. And my teammate, Ariel, had actually gone on to the finals and beaten her which was really good for our team because then we had another shot the next day. And then I remember the very next day I played her again and it was so hard because coming off that loss like an extremely close loss in such a huge important tournament of my life, I was already feeling like really mentally drained and tired and down. And especially against that type of style as well. I think there was a 90% chance I would've lost the next day. And in that match, the next match as well, I was down 0-2 for a best of seven match. So the first player won four games once the entire match. So being down 0-2 is also a huge challenge, I guess, to get through.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Because you have to work your way back up to neutral, right? You're already down two and now in order to win, you got to really put the pedal to the medal.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. Exactly. And I don't know, it was just something in my... I can't even put words to it, but after I was down 0-2 just something in my mind was just like, no you have to, like you have to get this no matter what it takes. And I was just really proud of myself for never even considering the possibility of giving up and just continuing to drive and play my best. And then somehow I was able to get back and win 4-3 in one of the closest matches in my life.

Emily Kwok:
What do you say to yourself in those moments when you are... So this is something that I commonly talk to a lot of other athletes about. So when someone's down and they need to make points up and they know that if they don't make these crucial points, they're going to be out, single elimination. It's very easy for athletes to get stuck in what we call a downward spiral where one bad move results in another bad move, right? And then the next thing you know those bad moves compound and then you've dug yourself into a really deep hole or you lose the match altogether. When you're in that crucial state, what are you saying to yourself because something that I've spoken to some athletes about is this idea that if you cling to the moment, if you cling too much to the flaw or the mistake that you made, then you're essentially no longer in the present.

Emily Kwok:
You're holding onto a moment that has passed. Or in some cases, some people will look too far into the future to something that hasn't happened. And it's a bit artificial. You can't perform in the past or in the future. You can only perform in the now. And so a lot of the times I'll tell people to focus themselves in the present, but what are you telling yourself when you have to make up that much of a gap? Because what I've noticed from you is, every time I've watched you play, there is an iron will in you. When other people describe you, one of the first things that comes out of their mouth is, Lily's really consistent. She's able to always strike that chord. And it's so true, there's something that's very, how shall I say? Very stable and trustworthy and rhythmic about your energy. So what do you think that is?

Lily Zhang:
It's interesting, actually. I think at that time, I didn't know quite well, but it was pretty much just taking it really point by point and not getting too down from past mistakes or thinking about the future because the moment I have a really bad habit as soon as I think of about the results of the match, everything just goes downhill for me. So over the years, I've developed a mantra in my head that I constantly repeat to myself, especially during the important moments where I just say like here and now, here and now, here and now. I literally just try to think only about the next point what my opponent's going to serve, how I'm going to return, every single step of only one point. And if I can get myself just to focus in the present, then I feel like I get the best results from that.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Well, that's a golden tip, I think. I feel like for myself having been in those situations, it's almost all you can do, right? Is to give yourself that moment back because I feel that the anticipation of what could happen or what we've imagined should happen, I've worked with some people who are leading and then they lose the edge because they've lost focus of the moment they're thinking too far into the future.

Emily Kwok:
And I've certainly been in situations where I've lost because I've maintained some sort of a lead. And then instead of dynamically pushing forward and continuing to fight and hold onto that lead, I withhold. Because I have a lead I think, oh, well, now I can just be static. I can just maintain, I can just play it safe. Or another way of expressing it is, play to not lose at this point. And it's interesting how when you put that energy into a dynamic fight, whatever the medium or the sport may be, that it changes the notion of your win, right? Because it's no longer... I feel like it's no longer a live energy. It's something that is, I guess, static or being held or imaginary.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. That's so true. That reminds me of what one of my coaches tells me, her as well [inaudible 00:39:20], but whenever I'm really nervous for martial, she always says, don't play to not lose. You have to play to win. It's really just being in the moment and that's it. It's much easier said than done though.

Emily Kwok:
Oh, my God. Tell me about it. I think it's the hardest part of performing. It's a lot of the times when I am working on this myself when I'm trying to help other people work through it, it's about helping them find their own triggers or in your way, you said you have a mantra, helping people find their own process to releasing themselves of everything else except for what's happening in that one second. And I think that when we talk about butterflies or nerves leading up to a big tournament or performance, it's the anticipation or the expectation of what we think should happen versus just showing up and dealing with it as it comes. And that to me is always the ultimate goal because I've certainly had more times than not felt a lot of anxiety about what I was supposed to do.

Emily Kwok:
And also, something that I'm interested in learning from you as well is, it's one thing when you're the nobody on the block that shows up and surprises everyone with your performance. But what is life like for you once you've started collecting some metal, right? So once the gear around your neck starts getting heavy and now you're a one time Olympian, two time Olympian, one time national champion, two time national champion, you can no longer be that naive athlete. And when I use the word naive as I've used it earlier, I don't mean that in a negative way. I just mean that as in like it's almost an innocent or a pure way of showing up, you don't know any better. So you just show up and you do what you do. But once you win and now other people know who you are and there's some sort of expectation that you may win again or you may give this other person a very hard time, there's a different kind of pressure that's there.

Emily Kwok:
What has that been like for you? Because if there's anyone to beat, Lily, you got a lot of metal around your neck and I'm going to imagine that it's not easy to show up and know that a lot of people are gunning for you. Like a lot of people are thinking she's the one to beat. So now that you're on the other side of that, where you've established yourself quite well, does that pressure do anything to you or how does it feel to be conscious of the fact that you've got something that other people are still trying to get to or trying to achieve? Does that add to your pressure or to your self consciousness in any way?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. Definitely. I think that's something that I'm still struggling with and trying to navigate how to figure out and play the best of my game. Like you said before, when you're young and nobody knows who you are, you can go there and whatever happens, happens. If you lose it's normal, no one cares or no one really sees that, right?

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. No one notices.

Lily Zhang:
No one notices.

Emily Kwok:
Who are you? Nobody. You are nobody to begin with. So who cares if you're nobody now?

Lily Zhang:
Exactly. And that's beautiful too. It's just like a no pressure, totally fun thing to do, but once you gain some more medals, some more titles, recognition, there becomes a lot of external pressure. And for me, I think growing up I think I definitely care a lot about what others think of me. So it's really just trying to navigate how to or just trying not to let other people's expectations of me get to myself too much and-

Emily Kwok:
Because that's easy.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. And pretty much just try to focus on myself and my own goals and my own expectations. But yeah, it's something I'm definitely still learning how to do. And I think a lot of times as well, it's like at least because I've gained those medals and recognitions and titles that I know that I've done it and I have the belief in myself that I can still do it. And so I think I really on that to get me through a lot of those tough moments.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Do you think at this point, because you're in your mid 20s and I want to get into your college years a little bit as well, but now that you're in your mid 20s and you've matured some, and you have some life experience, do you feel the same amount of pressure to be what everyone else wants you to be? Are you in a place where you're feeling firmly situated that like you're doing things on your own terms?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I think I'm getting there where it's I'm playing for myself much more so than for anyone else. And I think that's a really beautiful thing and it's a lot of growth and maturity that I'm actually quite proud of myself for because as a child, I think a lot of it was for my parents and for getting into a good college and it wasn't until... I quit table tennis actually as soon as I reached college. And that's when I realized that it's still something, it's a sport that I'm really passionate about. And if I want to pursue it, it's for myself and for no one else.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Well, that's a good segue because I wanted to ask you about that. In that documentary Top Spin, I can't remember the gentleman's name, but there was, I guess he looked like more of a college level player and he was talking about, yeah, maybe I would've liked to have gone to college and come of age and done all that stuff. But there's so much that I learned from playing table tennis at a competitive level. There's so much more that I can learn from having worldly experience. And you got that worldly experience at a very young age. What were the factors in you deciding to go to college and then while you're in college, you said you cut table tennis Cold Turkey. So what made you do that? Why not just continue to play?

Lily Zhang:
Table tennis in the US, at least, it's not something that a lot of people can actually make career and profession out of. So from what I've seen growing up at least is as soon as any player reaches college, they just quit completely and then focus on school or education or a job. And so I've never really seen it be done before where someone actually actively pursues table tennis as a professional career and really makes it. So it was just like a no brainer in my mind that as soon as I reached college, it was game over for me. It was just following that path that's already been made.

Emily Kwok:
And then you defied all odds and you said, I'm going to play table tennis.

Lily Zhang:
That's exactly what went through my mind.

Emily Kwok:
Well, I think more broadly some of the things that I'm interested in in talking to you about are the paths that you're creating because as I've gotten to know you and as I've started to see your journey, you're not only following the path that has been laid out for you in many ways and being respectful of that, but you're now at a stage where you're starting to build your own paths, right? Or blaze your own trail, if you will, and do things differently from what's been done. So you mentioned that when you cut table tennis out of your life Cold Turkey, that it did make you realize, hey, I actually do love this. Like there's something more to it than just showing up and practicing and going and competing.

Emily Kwok:
Why table tennis? What does it make you feel inside? Why on earth? And I ask this of myself all the time, but why on earth would you then decide after going to school and not just any school, by the way, Berkeley, that's a really good school. Why on earth would you then decide to jump back into a penula sport that has no support and to compound that we haven't even touched on the fact that you are also a woman and there's not much in it for you. So it's the same thing in jujutsu. Why pursue a sport that's heavily male dominated and has no money in it? What spoke to you? What was your calling?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. Well, I'm definitely not doing it for the money.

Emily Kwok:
We have yet to see, Lily. We have yet to see.

Lily Zhang:
That's true. That's true. Chicago Open, Women's Singles Champion, $100.

Emily Kwok:
Okay. Well, you want to know something? That's more than what jujutsu pays.

Lily Zhang:
No way. There's no way.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. So jujitsu, what we'll call the... As professionals we can call it the Federation level tournaments, the ones that lead you towards the Pan Ams and the world championships, you have to pay as an athlete, even a world champion who has medaled, you are expected to pay for entry into the tournament and pay your own way and you don't win. Now in response, there are other tournaments in the industry that have now popped up where they have tried to offer prize money for fighters in either select tournaments, invitation only tournaments or super fights. And I think in response to that, the IBJJF has now started to offer prize money for certain tournaments. But it's not the majority of tournaments.

Emily Kwok:
So if you're not one of the top, well, I'm going to say top one, maybe three fighters. It's very hard to make a living, being an athlete. You have to be doing other things, whether that be teaching or maybe you have a sponsor that's helping you out, but to make money off the sport alone is very difficult and short-lived at that. If you do achieve that level, it's only really while you're relevant, right? And I'm sure as you've seen in your sport, people have a particular lifespan. You're not going to be number one forever. So it's a pretty hard drop for a lot of people. So it's similar, but $100 Chicago Open, I wish they paid $100 for the Chicago Open.

Lily Zhang:
Okay, then I'm not complaining anymore, but to answer your earlier question, I think what really led me back to the sport was that I just like felt empty without it, that first year, my freshman year, where I quit Cold Turkey. And I just wanted to be like a normal teenager and live a normal life. But for some reason there was just a feeling I can't put words to accept just emptiness. I just felt like something was missing from my life. And I remember I took, I think it was psychology of early adulthood or emerging adulthood from the ages of 18 until 27 ish, which I was smack in the middle of, so I thought that was pretty relevant. But I remember the professor saying like a lot of people within that age feel lost or empty or unsure of what to do with their lives.

Lily Zhang:
And she recommended taking data every single day just of the small things of what really speaks to you and what really makes you feel alive. And for me, I think, table tennis is a huge part of that. Like even going to practice, improving on something really small and knowing that all that hard work and dedication has paid off is something that, I don't know, it just gives my life meaning at least, just reflecting on that. I think that's what really brought me back to the sport.

Emily Kwok:
Wow. So in this new, I'll call it like a new phase because you're are coming back to it after college. What do you see in it now that you didn't see before? And I'll also tack on there. I know that working with young women and inspiring girls to enter the sport and to pursue the sport is also really important to you. Why are those things important to you?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think it's because when I was a little girl, I didn't really have those role models growing up. There were definitely players in the US that I looked up to, but again, I saw that when they went to college, they quit and that's why I followed their pathway as well. So for me to be able to possibly be a role model for other young girls or be a begin of hope is something that I would really love. And obviously I don't know what the path looks like because I think I'm still there, still trying to make one, but that would really be, I think, a dream for me and hopefully it helps even one person out there, one young girl.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Well, coming back to it post college, you're already defying the norm, right? Because most people haven't done that. So I guess we have yet to see what emerges from that because I'm going to imagine, is there a limit or a roof on how long an athlete is considered competitive in adult divisions? Like for example, in jujutsu, you can't become a black belt until you're 18. And so when you're 18 and you enter the adult division, one would argue that those first four or five years, you're pretty lethal because you have youth on your side and we have what I call the old people world championships, masters for people who are over 30. The divisions go all the way up to people who are in their 60s and 70s. And you're always welcome to fight down a division. So if I'm 40 and I want to fight 30 year olds, no problem, but you can't fight up, right? You can't pretend that you're older. Is there a competitive lifespan on traditional table tennis athletes?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah, I think so. It's definitely a larger lifespan than a lot of other sports like gymnastics or diving, but youth definitely helps having all that strength and power and physicality, but also because we talked a little bit about how table tennis is such a fine detailed and delicate sport, I think experience also makes a huge difference. So for me, at least I feel like the prime age of table tennis would be like from 24 to 28 even.

Emily Kwok:
Oh, damn. So you're just entering into that prime stage girl.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah.

Emily Kwok:
So this isn't an interview to say she's back. This is an interview to be like I've arrived.

Lily Zhang:
Watch out.

Emily Kwok:
Well, that's really exciting. That's really exciting to think that you have yet the best years in your competitive career.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think there's still a lot of potential and growth for me. Yeah. It's just a matter of me really wanting to go for it. I think.

Emily Kwok:
Something that I have also recognized in you is that it seems that a lot of the more developed countries with table tennis such as China or Germany, Japan, they have full teams and leagues and structures to help an athlete get better and to help athletes mature. And as I even learned from you guys when we went to the world championships, China will bring the entire A team and B team. Regardless of how many of them are actually performing in the world championships, they'll bring the teams to just keep their players well supported. And as I understand it in the United States, you guys just don't have that level of visibility or support.

Emily Kwok:
So it seems that even when you're in a hotbed like the Bay Area, you're still having to construct your training in many ways, but unlike other people that I've met, it seems like you even go above and beyond that. And you don't just have one designated coach, but it seems like you are pretty thoughtful about the individuals that you incorporate into your training, whether it be coaches, training partners, different types of influences that you have. Is that something that you've done purposely? Has that been something that you've done out of necessity? How much of this is you figuring out what you need versus you dealing with the circumstances at hand?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah, I think it's definitely both. Like you mentioned, there's not the same type of support for table tennis in the US. A lot of other countries like China like Japan, a lot of funding that comes from the government and support from the government whereas the US it's a lot more of a privatized system. So when you're playing table tennis, it's very individual. And when you look for coaches and training, it's pretty much only private lessons where it's like a one-on-one session for the coach and the player. And then in other countries, they have like a whole foundation and system built for people who want to stay in their training center, live there, eat there, train there all the time.

Lily Zhang:
I actually did that for a while in Germany and in China as well. And I saw how their training system works and I think I learned a lot from there. And it was a really great experience for me to be able to play with so many different types of players and styles and gain that valuable experience, but at the same time, I do enjoy how there is a lot of freedom here in the US. So even though I'd say it's a bit more or a lot more work on my end to try to find these coaches and training partners, I also do feel like I have a lot of a more flexibility of what I feel like I need. So I can really prioritize myself and what I feel like I need to improve upon.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. I think that's unusual. I think that it's very, I think for a lot of us, when we start learning something, particularly as children, we have the experience of almost being spoonfed what it is that we need to learn, right? And that path is directly laid out for us. And it's not to say that path is bad, but it might not be for everyone. And so there's a little bit of, do you fit into the system or does this cookie cutter shape work for you? And it can be very challenging for someone as they grow to reach a point where they feel assured and confident enough to say, hey, this has been really good, but I also need something different or I need something a little bit more.

Emily Kwok:
And so what's unusual about your path is that you almost naturally migrated to a place where you are starting to develop you own process and your own means and your own methods where I would imagine if Lily Zhang was a German citizen or if you were born in China and you lived in China, you might have a very different path right now. Would you agree? Disagree?

Lily Zhang:
I totally agree with that statement.

Emily Kwok:
What do you think you might be like outside of maybe eating more schnitzel and drinking beer?

Lily Zhang:
Who says I don't? I think when I was those places, a lot of it was just following what was given to us. And so I think if I had grown up and was cultivated in that, I really don't think I would enjoy table tennis as much as I do now.

Emily Kwok:
Wow.

Lily Zhang:
Just because being here it's really everything is my own choice. So I'm doing this purely for myself and not for anyone else or any government or state funding. It's literally me, myself and I. And I think I've learned to really appreciate that a lot. Yeah, I really don't know if I would be playing table tennis if I was raised in that environment.

Emily Kwok:
That's interesting especially considering earlier on you also said that there is a big part of you, that's like a people pleaser, right? And there's a huge people pleaser in Emily Kwok like huge. I know that's really hard for people to think because a lot of people don't relate to me that way anymore, but I don't know. I feel like it's a standard byproduct of being a good Asian child that you should want to please the people around you and be seen and not heard and to follow the rules. And it takes a while to find your own way out of that. I think most never do. I think in my own experience, if it wasn't for a traumatic instance where I felt like I was ejected out of the familial nucleus, I'm not sure that I would have found my own way because I, by nature, probably would've wanted to just fit in wherever I could have.

Emily Kwok:
So to your point, it's different when you're able to make those choices for yourself. And I would argue the earlier you are able to make those choices or given access to making those choices, perhaps the earlier you mature into the type of individual, the type of athlete, the type of performer you are truly meant to be because your journey is more path of your individual expression versus having to follow maybe a very sensical and logical and productive path that has worked for many others. And so this idea of the individual versus everyone else really comes into play.

Emily Kwok:
And I think it's an important one because if you're going to perform at the highest levels in anything that you do, it's funny, right? I think a lot of people think that they want to be like this person or they want to be celebrated and they want to be good so that everyone sees what they're doing and they want to of belong, but if you actually look at some of the best performers that we have, they're individuals and there's nobody else like them and they march to the beat of their own drum. And so for you to recognize that at such an early age, I think that's got to feel pretty liberating.

Lily Zhang:
It does. Thank you Emily, but I'm still definitely struggling with the part of me, that's a people pleaser and a part of me that I'm trying to find out.

Emily Kwok:
I know the people pleaser is in there.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I think growing up especially in an Asian household and having those cultural values really shapes you as a person and family is such a huge part in Asian culture and actually just... I know growing up my parents always wanted me... They supported table tennis, but they wanted to use it as a means for getting into a good college and then getting a good job.

Emily Kwok:
Which you did.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I pleased that part. And so it was really hard for me to continue to pursue table tennis because I knew it wasn't what they wanted for me, but actually recently I sat down with my family and had a really productive conversation with them that my mom for the first time said that she wants the best for me which in her eyes is to find a stable job and career and settle down, but at the same time she recognizes that it's ultimately my life and my choice and she wants me to be happy. And if that's what I really want to do is to pursue this sport that I love so much, she's fully behind me and supportive of me. Yeah, that was a really cool moment for me and for us.

Emily Kwok:
Wow. Yeah. I've had a number of altercations, shall I say, with my family relative to what they wanted for me and what I wanted for myself. And you could say that maybe because I felt that the trust between me and my family was broken when I was 14 for the first time, that for better or for worse just chose to trust myself and march the beat of my own drum from there on in. And looking back and being a parent myself now, I didn't understand it then, but I can see that a lot of their behavior was a result of them just wanting... I know that they love me, but it's like they wanted to protect me or they wanted to give me the most stable and best possible path to success which I think in their minds translates to financial stability, right?

Emily Kwok:
I think my parents are immigrants. I'm going to imagine that yours are too, but for them it meant finding some financial stability and being able to put a roof over your head and to save money and not have any big wants. That's a big deal. And so I think that their controlling nature was their way of trying to say, this is what we want for you and no, don't go do this thing that you want to do because it's risky. And what is this jujutsu stuff? Don't do that. Don't do art. Don't do all of these things that are expressive because that doesn't guarantee you a good salary and an income. And I see it now as an act of love, but at the time I was just like, what the hell's wrong with you people?

Emily Kwok:
And for your mother, and I'm going to imagine that your father shares the perspective, to be able to say those things to you, I have to imagine that took a lot. Not only a lot of emotion, but just a lot of maturity for your parents to be able to say that to you because for immigrants to come to this country and to make it and to hope to set the foundation for their children to thrive and succeed, that's a really hard pill to swallow, to say I'm going to trust that what you're doing is better than what we wanted you to do.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I totally agree with you and I can a 100% relate to that, but I think it was a really big moment of growth for our family. And I've gotten into so many arguments with my parents as well about my future and what I should choose. And I was actually talking to a friend about this the other day and how we should navigate these conversations with family. And we were talking about it and it's like a lot of our parents, they are immigrants and they've had a really hard life coming to the US and trying to make a better life for themselves and us. And it goes back to, what is it called? Maslow's hierarchy of needs if you know that.

Emily Kwok:
Oh, yes. Girl. I know that.

Lily Zhang:
My psychology degree finally coming into use.

Emily Kwok:
It's important. Yes.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah, but when they came over, they were just trying to fulfill a lot of the physiological needs of food, water, shelter, clothing, and safety. And so I think because they were stuck in that mindset or in that environment, I feel like they, I don't know if project is the right word, but they feel like stability is the most important thing. And obviously financial stability is huge in their eyes. But she was saying the way that she navigates conversations with her parents is that she feeds to their ego that like because they already provided us with all these the bottom tier of the pyramid of physiological safety, love, and belonging needs that we get to have the opportunity to have self-actualization or what is the other one? This ego or steam or something.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Well, essentially, when we have our basic needs fulfilled and we have food and we have warmth and we have a roof over our heads, it frees us up to think about some of these loftier needs because our basic survival needs are taken care of. So yeah, ego ambitions, all that kind of stuff.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah.

Emily Kwok:
That's an interesting strategy to talk to parents about why you should or why you can focus on these other ideas or these other ambitions. I remember every time I would try to talk to my parents about it, they'd be like, I don't care what anybody else has or stop comparing us or stop comparing yourself to other people. We're not talking about other people, we're talking about this house. We're talking about you and I'm like, okay.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah, but then they compare you to everyone else.

Emily Kwok:
Oh, my God. Don't even get me started. That's like a whole other podcast. We could do a whole podcast on being a child of Asian immigrants.

Lily Zhang:
Oh, my gosh, we totally could. There is trauma bond entire time.

Emily Kwok:
Oh, my goodness. Well, but it's a real thing I think generationally. What I value versus what they valued are two separate things. And something else I was going to mention was like, I don't know if it happened to you or to your friends, but I think in some ways with my life, my father was a creative, my father was an artist before he was anything else. But then he went and had to go do the dutiful thing and get a real job to provide for our family. And he became an accountant. So my father never supported me going to art school. He refused to come to art shows. The only thing he showed up for ever was to see me walk across the stage and get my diploma because it was a real university degree, it wasn't a college certificate.

Emily Kwok:
And that really hurt me because it was like they wouldn't acknowledge what was meaningful to me. And sometimes I question whether or not he was resentful that he had sacrificed his life or his wants and his needs so that I could be raised and I could then pursue whatever I wanted to pursue. Sometimes I question that because my parents will always lord over my head. They're like, "Emily, you had straight A's and everyone thought you were going to do amazing things, but now look at what you've become." And I'm like, okay, here we go. I'm a black sheep that didn't do anything meaningful with her life.

Lily Zhang:
But you have, look where you are now.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah, but it's funny because I think that's really hard for them to take in. I made my way into that white collar life or I made my way into that position that they always wanted me to be in, but I did it on my own terms. I did it through being an artist. I did it through being an athlete which was not what they wanted for me. I think in their minds, if they could've controlled my path, I would've gone to an Ivy league school, married a lawyer, become a doctor and that would've been my life and I didn't do that. Anyways, life pass. I just have a couple more questions for you as we're coming down to the end of this, but I'm curious to know, in an unconventional path like your own, who do you look up to? Who are your influences and what is it that helps you know that you're making the right decisions for yourself?

Lily Zhang:
Oh, good question. What if I have no answers?

Emily Kwok:
That's fine. That's fine. I just ask the question because if you have no answer to that, I think that's an answer unto itself. I think that a lot of times those of us that are out there trying to be better at what we do, does it mean that we always have to have someone else guiding us? Does it mean that there always has to be a way? Or are there those of us that just figure it out on our own? And if that's your answer, that's a good answer. Part of the objective behind recording this podcast is to understand how people have found their path to success and recognizing that no singular path is the same for anyone, but you've grown up as a minority in a minority sport. So I just wonder, okay, is there anyone that you look up to in or outside of the sport? How do you put one foot in front of the other every morning?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. There are definitely people I look up to in the sport like people who I really admire their table tennis, but I think just because there really hasn't been any, especially female athletes in the US who are born in the US and then have gone on to actually pursue a professional career in table tennis that I know of at least or that I've seen in my lifetime. I don't really have someone like that. And so I think that's part of why I'm trying to hopefully become that person for other young girls out there for them to believe that there is a path and it is possible if they really wanted to go for it and to work hard for it. I think it's just really being okay with the uncertainty of it all and just knowing that that's a part of life and just believing that I'll end up where I'm supposed to be, I guess, as long as I really give it my all.

Emily Kwok:
Kind of love that Lily, a beautiful little answer. Knowing what you know now and looking back at where you were when you were a child and you just began, what advice do you have for young people? Whether they're they're children or teenagers, individuals that are trying to pursue a path of mastery in table tennis or otherwise, what have you learned along the way that you would impart to them?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I think for me what's really important is to really have a passion for what you do. And I used to say only passion because I feel like hard work and dedication really stems from that, but I've recently been reading a lot of podcast and books from Angela Duckworth and I really admire her theory on grit which is passion plus perseverance. And I feel like that speaks to me a lot because I do have a lot of passion for this sport, but at the same time, it's knowing that there will be setbacks and failures and losses and still being able to get through all of those and persevere and just realize that in the end, your hard work and your time and effort will pay off. And yeah, I think that's just a really important thing to remember especially in those moments when you're feeling really down and hopeless.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Well, look, you're the last lady standing, right? A lot of the people that you came up with that you were playing against as a teenager, you're out playing them into another stage of your life which I think is pretty badass. And I think of it as like in jujutsu, I started at a time where if you were a woman training jujutsu, you probably had something wrong with you because it was just inhospitable and it still is very inhospitable to a lot of women, but I just think of it like you just don't go away. Maybe you're not doing the right thing or maybe it's not working out for you the way that you'd like it to, but if you keep doing it and you don't go away, you're going to force them to not be able to ignore you forever.

Emily Kwok:
And you have that temperament and that will that you're just always there. You're always present. And I see it in the way that you play, even for myself being an untrained table tennis eye, I can definitely pick up on that quality when I've seen you on the table. Lilly, just as we wrap up, I know that you have quite the burgeoning Instagram fan base. And I'm just wondering if people would like to keep up with what you're doing, do you have any appearances scheduled, any seminars? How do people get in contact with you if they want to stay abreast of what's going on in your world?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah. I do have an Instagram and Facebook page that I semi-regularly update. So if anyone wants to follow me and keep up with my tournaments and training and whatever else is going on in my life, it's @Lilly with two Ys, Z. I think when I made the Instagram handle none of the names were available so I just picked a random one. L-I-L-Y-Y-Z. And then Facebook would just be my full name is Lily and Zhang. Lilian and Zhang, I'm trying to correct myself nowadays to say my last name the nonwhite way.

Emily Kwok:
Zhang. What is the... Zhang, is that right?

Lily Zhang:
Yeah.

Emily Kwok:
Okay, because I like to fool people because I'm either Korean, Japanese or Chinese. I just let people pick the one that they think I am. And then when I pronounce things inevitably in a very American or Canadian way and they look very confused I'm just like, sorry, I'm not real. I'm not what you think I am. One time I was in Korea and I was there for an MMA fight and we went to the public market and this woman came up to me and she says, are you Korean? And I was like, "No." And she goes, oh, like with disgust. And she was like, "Too bad." And I was like, "Too bad." I was like, wait a second. Yeah. And then another time... And this isn't anything against Koreans, but Asians have their... All races have their thing and Asians have their own digs at each other.

Emily Kwok:
I had somebody that emailed me once that had a new Gi company, a Gi is a uniform that we wear in jujutsu. And he asked me if he could send me one and in his message, he was like, I'm really so proud to see another Korean representing in the sport. And I wrote back to him, I was like, "Oh, thank you so much. That's really kind of you." And I was like, "Just so you know, I just want to make sure you're okay with the fact that I'm not Korean, I'm half Japanese and half Chinese." And then he said, "Oh, thank you for letting me know. Good luck with your jujutsu career." And he didn't send me the Gi. So I was like, okay. Yeah. So it's a thing. I get the cultural nuance. It's like it's a big deal. Lily, do you have any scheduled appearances or tournaments that you're looking forward to playing next year if we want to start like an in person fan club and follow you around?

Lily Zhang:
Since the pandemic is still going strong, a lot of things are very much up in the air, but if these do happen, I'll be playing probably World Table Tennis tournaments in Qatar.

Emily Kwok:
Ooh.

Lily Zhang:
And then also the World Table Tennis championships are coming up again in Chengdu, China, end of April.

Emily Kwok:
Wow. That is very soon. Very soon.

Lily Zhang:
Yeah, time flies.

Emily Kwok:
And I'm just going to put it out there. If anyone is interested in supporting this young woman and blaze a new trail in table tennis, please reach out to her. It's exciting for me to talk to someone who is not only present and performing well in a sport that isn't as recognized in North America, that's something that sits close to my heart because of what I've been through in jujutsu, but I just have a lot of admiration and respect for the fact that you're still doing it and you're trying to create a path for more people to follow in. And whether you see it now or not, I guarantee you in 10 or 20 years, other people will be able to appreciate the work that you put in Lilly. It's really impressive. I'm really very honored and have happy to be able to share a space with you. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast and I hope your fans appreciate it because I think you have so many.

Lily Zhang:
Thank you so much, Emily.

Emily Kwok:
That's okay bobcat. Go kill people. Lily, thank you so much. And to everyone that's been listening, thanks for your attention and peace out.