Episode 9: Dave Camarillo

Episode 9: Dave Camarillo

Many more times than not, I’ve been let down by a teacher. In some way I felt like they weren’t there for me, or they held back from sharing something that I felt would have made a major impact. In the worst cases I’d witness them doing something morally or ethically off putting. The kind of disappointment I’d feel in these scenarios was awful as I looked up to them so much, almost god-like. It’s easy to understand, as we are taught from an early age to revere and respect those who educate us.

As I’ve grown older, I’ve reflected and learned to acknowledge that the teacher themselves wasn’t the problem. The problem was me, because I expected too much from them. I placed them on an unrealistic pedestal and was disappointed when they’d teter off the edge. There are many kinds of teachers and they try to bestow their best knowledge upon us. So is it their fault if they are human, occasionally make mistakes, and do not have the power to instill life principles in us when we pay them to teach us how to drive a car? Cook? Or play basketball? 

Now being a teacher myself, I see how some students look up to me for a number of reasons, and I do the best I can to help them with their needs. I live with the fact that I may not fulfill everyone’s expectations all the time, but I don’t beat myself up over that because I accept that I’m human and all humans have limitations. We cannot be all things to all people. 

My guest this week is someone I’ve greatly admired for a long time, decades even! 

My admiration has evolved from attention that was focused on his legendary competitive feats and being a pioneer of the American BJJ scene, to a teacher greatly respected for his bank of knowledge in more than one art, to a father and husband, to being an overall badass who is called upon by special forces and the movie industry for his depth of experience. Dave Camarillo feels super human on many levels, but I could not know someone more grounded, gritty and wise from a lifetime of quietly pushing his limits. He's someone who has been successful on so many fronts, but is unabashedly willing to learn from his mistakes and instead of hiding what he doesn't know - works harder to be and do better.

In Dave, there is a deep integrated intelligence that I can’t help but want to get close to, because he is constantly moving and making sense of this world with his mind and body. He wakes up everyday just like the rest of us, puts one foot in front of the other and wants you to see the human before everything else. 

He has been the hero I always wanted to meet. 

I hope you enjoy who Dave is and all that he has to share from the lessons he’s received from doing a ton of shit that most of us wouldn’t do.

Full Transcript:

Emily Kwok:
Hello and welcome to The Master and The Apprentice where we explore the path of apprenticeship to mastery. Today with me, I have a really special guest named Dave Camarillo. Dave is best known as being a family man, a father, a martial artist, very well versed in the world of Judo, BJJ, and MMA. He's a world champion trainer. He's also involved in combatives and has his own system called Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu. And most recently is also a stuntman. He also has a plethora of books and instructionals, and he's dabbled in podcasts and I'm not sure what he hasn't done at this point, but Dave has been someone that I've looked up to for a really long time. So I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you today, Dave. Thanks for being here.

Dave Camarillo:
Oh, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Emily Kwok:
So I guess maybe, we'll start off with the fact that you have of quite a bit of breadth and depth in terms of disciplines. And maybe we'll start at the beginning where I understand you were sort of raised around the sport and the art of Judo. And if you wouldn't mind talking a little bit about what it was like to be a student of a discipline such as Judo, but also kind of uniquely, your first teacher I believe was also your father, if I'm not mistaken? And this was also kind of given to you as a way of life, as opposed to being the type of thing or activity that someone would sort of express interest in participating in. So I wonder if you wouldn't mind talking a little bit about what that was like for you.

Dave Camarillo:
Right. Yeah. My father was my first instructor. I started at the age around four or five, so it just became normalized early on in life. And I think you hit it on the head. It was just like Jigoro Kano wanted, the founder of Judo, he wanted it a part of life. So it just a normal everyday activity, pretty much every day, five days a week. And my dad was very serious. So for example, he had built alongside the recreational dojo that we had, which was a five day a week and we would train there. He built, I think it was a six car garage in our back pasture at our house in Bakersfield, California. Therefore, we could do little special occasions there, bring people in and train, but also have a Saturday or Sunday session. Meaning basically he was just super involved in creating Judo champions.

Dave Camarillo:
That was kind of the landscape that I grew up in. So when normal people would go to the Friday football games at their high school, I was at Judo practice. I even remember going to the Friday football game, I think once or twice and not really understanding why anyone would ever go. So I was raised and socialized in Judo. I mean, I even think I had trouble talking to people in my high school who didn't do Judo. I had friends, but unless they were involved in something extracurricular that was a huge part of their life, I had trouble relating to them and I spent the last 40 years of my life trying to remedy that.

Emily Kwok:
So this wasn't normal?

Dave Camarillo:
No.

Emily Kwok:
So, that's interesting. So that was kind of where I was going to go next, was I suppose at the time as a child... So for example, my husband had asked me when our first child was born, hey, I think I'd like to get her, I think it was like baptized or something. And I said, for what reason? And he said, well, because my family's Roman Catholic. I'm like, but are you a Roman Catholic? I was like, you don't even practice. I've never seen you go to church before. And I said, I don't have a problem if maybe later in life, she wants to become a Roman Catholic if that's something she decides and gravitates towards, but at this time in our lives, I was like, I don't know about indoctrinating her, just giving her that way of life because she doesn't know any differently. So when you kind of just were raised around that and that was your level of normal, at what point did you start to see that maybe what you had was not normal?

Dave Camarillo:
Well, you both embrace it and question it. I think I questioned it early on, but if the river's flowing really hard and you're in the middle of it, you go with the river. It's just the way the wind was blowing for me. So I think the first time I... I mean I wanted to quit a thousand times. I tell people that all the time. I've wanted to quit Judo a hundred to a thousand times. And I repeat that because I seriously sat down, I go, I don't want to do this anymore, but I kept doing it because it was just, my whole family was doing it. My brother was my best training partner. He was older than I am, but he was just a great training partner. Not back then, he was a bully most of my early life. But even that was a good experience because I was getting rough housed by somebody who was good at martial arts.

Dave Camarillo:
So that's just the environment I grew up in. And many times due to just natural tendencies for young people to have failure, so if I didn't have a good Judo practice, I wanted to quit. That was just natural. I think that's a natural thing for everybody, but there was no quitting. And when I say all of my family was involved, there was the four of us, but my mom didn't train Judo. But if I would go to her saying I wanted to quit, it was a waste of time. Everybody was on board that this is what the boys are doing right now. And remember it's also the eighties and nineties and times were different then. I do a different approach with my son now, who is five, but yeah, it was definitely normalized, but I questioned the, I want to be a normal kid, I think I even said that to my parents a few times here and there and they would, for the most part, push it aside. But to say it wasn't obvious that I didn't lead a normal life is lying to myself.

Dave Camarillo:
But I think by the age of 15, 14 or 15, I remember having a conversation with myself and I said, if I quit, I will have thrown away all of these years and years of blood, sweat and tears, literally. All of these competitions, I was involved in, all of these training practices, all of these trips to Japan for training, all of these people I would meet. And I would be walking away from my brother, who again, was a huge influence in my life at the time. So about 14 and 15, when I had that realization, I actually sat myself down and had that conversation. I never wanted to quit again, it wasn't a day, even to this day, that I ever entertained the idea of quitting. I will not quit and you can call it crazy because I think to normal people that is crazy, to me, it's normal. It's normal to put this much energy into something and then venture out into other areas where, I call it the seed to which the forest grows. Judo became this background of movement and discipline that I've used in other aspects of my life.

Emily Kwok:
Wow. Wow. I have a lot of, my mind went in a few different directions, but maybe...

Dave Camarillo:
That's okay, I have ADD too, like severe ADD.

Emily Kwok:
What you just had to say, it was so boring. No, I guess I'll just sort of glaze over the two main directions and then you can kind of pick what you want to answer. But one, I kind of wonder as a parent, because you and I are both parents of children who are around the same age. And one of the things that I question is as a parent, have you ever thought about or reflected upon what your father, what your parents were thinking when they pushed you so hard into it? Because it's funny, like I have my children involved in a little bit of Jiu-Jitsu and gymnastics and swimming and whatnot. And what you said, I think, about the eighties and the nineties, it's true, like we're in a different state of evolution and change and how we decide to pick our values around parenting.

Emily Kwok:
But it's interesting, right? Because I have parents who have brought their children to me and to our school. And when I've asked them, oh, like what brought you in? Or like, did your kid express interest in wanting to learn how to fight? And they say, actually, no, this is a non-negotiable. And they're like, as long as they're living in my house until they're 18, this is what they're going to do, this and swimming. And I was like, oh, interesting. I was like, do you have an interest in Jiu-Jitsu? And they say, no, I just think that something like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and swimming, like these are life skills and these are things that they need to learn, so it's just something that they're going to do and it's just something that they're going to be raised with. So I always question as a parent, like how much you provide that structure and don't give them room to move on some things versus giving children the choice to kind of pick where their interests are and the good or bad that comes out of that.

Emily Kwok:
The second thing that I was sort of thinking as you were speaking as well, was that sometime times when we dedicate or devote a large amount of our time to a particular interest or institution or thing, that when you hit that point of like, do I quit? Like, do I give this up or do I keep going with this? And the way in which I relate to it is, sometime ago I was involved with a Jiu-Jitsu team that I was deeply dedicated to, but there were some internal issues there. And there was sort of like, are you going to get excommunicated and get the boot? And if that happens, are you going to quit or are you going to stay and find a way to continue to thrive? And so when you have that feeling of having to give something up or you will be expelled from that thing, and you talk about sort of doubling down your commitment, it's funny, right?

Emily Kwok:
Because there's also the question of, if I quit or if I leave this thing, does it mean that all this time that I put towards it, does that make that time a waste? Does that make me a waste? Does my life, or does my experience then mean nothing to me and sort of like questioning and sort of balancing for yourself, whether you can take anything from those experiences, even if that thing is no longer a part of who you are. So I'll leave it at that because maybe your mind went in 20 different directions.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. I'm thinking, look at that squirrel outside, right? No, not at all, that's me. Let me attack the second question first, leaving a team versus leaving an art. So when I decided not to leave, I decided not to leave the art and that art now is many different things. I mean, I'm learning karate, aikido, obviously I blended Judo and Jiu-Jitsu, I'm learning sword fighting, I'm learning nunchucks. Like to me, the base movement came from Judo, but basically I'm using that, again that discipline and energy in other areas. But leaving a team, I think it's different, because I've done all of those things. I mean, if you look, I was at South Valley Judo Club... Which I don't even think, no it doesn't exist anymore. That was my first Judo club, that was my dad's baby at the time. When we grew up, I left because I outgrew it, that's the best way to say it.

Dave Camarillo:
I was competing at a high level and we had made friends with Haruo Imamura in Fresno at Fresno state university, who later became my sensei. And we would go there every Friday and we just realized that there's something better. So it's like, I'm on a ladder, if I want to go up to the next level, I need to just climb that ladder. And so I did, I moved to Fresno and the same thing happened there at Fresno State, I out grew it. And then I went to San Jose State and then I felt, for me, I outgrew that, or at least was transitioning into a different part of my life, went to The American Kickboxing Academy. I felt that I outgrew that or better way of saying it is, just again, I'm transitioning to something else. And I've done that over and over in my life and those are my experiences.

Dave Camarillo:
But I think it's very similar to the scenario that you bring up. The situation that you're bringing up is, I think there's a point, because I've had people leave Guerilla and I've had people still be extremely loyal for a very long time to Guerilla. So I've been in pretty much every I would say, angle of that situation of leaving a team. I think when I left a team, again, times were different, it really wasn't easy. I think today it's a different generation. I think people are leaving teams left and right. Obviously there's way more people training, but I think you need to answer maybe two questions. Number one, why am I leaving? And number two, which I think is the answer to your question or situation, which is, how am I going to use this information to better me in the future?

Dave Camarillo:
I don't believe in burning bridges, even though I have at times. I don't anymore. I think leaving a team without reminding yourself of the gratitude that you have, somebody could do something and you feel it's extremely wrong. But I think especially if we're having a conversation by ourselves, there's nobody else around us to pull us in different emotional directions. We should just say, am I being too sensitive? I mean, maybe leaving is the right answer, but am I being too sensitive to leave and then just justify my behavior by burning a bridge to make myself feel better? I guess I'm going in depth on the many different thoughts that enter your head when you're making such a decision.

Dave Camarillo:
And so I think for me, again, just my experiences, I've had people wrong me, I've been totally stabbed in the back. And I am not going to get it into specifics, but I was stabbed in the back one time and I'm like, now that I look at my life and career and I'm like, all I have is thanks for that individual, twofold for the amazing support that they gave me during my growth period and for stabbing me in the back. Because for first off, no relationship is without yin and yang, it's not just love or the good or bad times, you have to have both. If it's just bad, use social exchange theory, which is cost versus reward. If the cost is higher than the reward, then you move on. But when you move on, you still should show, because we're human beings, and what I do and I don't have the most patience of anybody.

Dave Camarillo:
Like I have to constantly work on my behavior to make sure I'm professional and fair and all these things I'm telling you right now are still a struggle with me, but I'm telling you because it's a struggle and it's a day to day situation for me. But think we need just to put emotion aside and just be grateful that I have the time with this person or team and only speak good to them and about them. That's rule number one, obviously, because my value system might be different than someone else's and you see some of these teams don't change. They are who they are and there's a lot of benefit to that, but there's always, if there's a benefit, there's always a detriment, no matter who you are.

Dave Camarillo:
And the other thing I think that helps me with empathy is now that I'm a father, I just look at the person maybe who stabbed me in the back and think of them as a baby, because they were once a baby. And for some reason, this is a trick that helps me because they were a baby that knew nothing and maybe they were stabbed in the back and maybe they had experiences. Obviously they had experiences that I don't have. So that helps me just be like on a kind of level playing field with people. That doesn't mean they need to be in my life anymore. But I think the strong thing to do is number one, recognize, okay, this is not a fit for me. Number two, I'm not going to burn bridges. And number three, I'm going to utilize that experience to transition and be life lessons for something I'm doing in the future.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. It's funny how, I mean, that was an incredibly evolved and intelligent answer, but I always find it interesting how, as I've gotten older, as much as I've cherished and as much as emotions have helped me grow and thrive and succeed, I also recognize that when you're not in check of where you're at, when you can't sort of see your behavior and your actions objectively, and you're completely immersed in the moment, that when you allow emotions to sort of, be the rider of the elephant, it can be really damaging and detrimental. And like you, I think I've also had experiences that have really burned me over my career in martial arts. And in the moment, I wanted that person to burn in hell, but looking backwards, I've often thought, I'd really like to send this person a gift basket for making my life so shitty when they did, because I learned a lot while I was there and fuck, the lessons that they taught me, It's like, I don't know if there was a better way to learn it.

Emily Kwok:
And I'm grateful now for what came, I guess, the outcomes of that entire cycle of experience. I couldn't see it then because I was so wrapped up and subjectively experiencing what was happening. But once I sort of gained perspective or took a hundred foot view or a thousand foot view, I'm like, actually, this was really valuable for me to understand. And because of that, I think I'm able to, in the ways that you also expressed, approach scenarios very differently when they per se, happen to me. And when you were talking about just sort of evolving out of things and having people evolve away from you even, the ability to understand that we all... I have a saying, like my normal's not your normal. I learned this when I was 24 and really depressed living in Japan for a year.

Emily Kwok:
Because I went there thinking that I understood the culture, because I'm half Japanese and was raised in a Japanese speaking household. And I learned very quickly when I was there, that I was a foreign entity and I didn't understand anybody and nobody understood me. Even the foreigners couldn't see me because I looked like one of them. And so I understood in that year that, just because you think you understand something superficially, there's no ability for you to truly understand the depth of one's experience and how different it is from yours. So I don't know, I hope it made me somebody that was a little bit more patient and empathetic towards others because I'm also very much a hard driver and I don't mince my words and I kind of move through life the way that I do, which is sometimes very sharply and quickly for some. But to what you're speaking about, that really resonates with me because I think it's a hard thing for people to do.

Emily Kwok:
And I don't know if it's age or if, hopefully we all mature to that level, but it's not an easy path to get to where you are.

Dave Camarillo:
No, no, but that's life the better we can... I mean, that's why we do Jiu-Jitsu. I mean, if someone's not trying to choke me, I don't feel right. You know, there's something wrong if I'm not fighting my friends.

Emily Kwok:
Okay. So I have a question about that, but before I get to that, what if we circle back to the first question as well, relative to parenting. What do you see in being a parent now versus like some of the ideas or choices that you think that your parents might have made for you in that time? I've been around and I've also worked with young children or teenagers who have been pushed very hard to do Jiu-Jitsu and to perform. And it's been interesting to see how they've evolved into or away from it. And most of the time, these people have been able to really work through it and come to a really beautiful place. But it's interesting observing that, right? And I also came up within my own weird parental decisions and the way they decided to parent. And it's funny when you become your own parent and you see things the way that you do. So how do you relate to the experience now?

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah so, there're degrees. First of all, I think we need to understand like conceptually where my mind is at, like there're degrees to which we understand things. The problem is, we are trained deliberately to think in terms of black and white and that's why our world is so divisive. If you hear something in mainstream media, they don't have time to break it down. And so like selling a book is the same example. A good example, Ryan Holiday's Ego Is The Enemy, well ego is absolutely not the enemy, but you wouldn't buy a book that is somewhere in the middle where ego is great, but it also can be a detriment to your life. Like you're not going to buy that book. You know what I mean? Like, it's not going to pop on the shelf. And so we're absolutely trained to think in terms of black and white.

Dave Camarillo:
So I feel the training of children and again, five years ago, I probably had a slightly different opinion. Like I thought I was going to put more pressure on my son, which I don't. I don't put nearly as much as my father did, but I also still agree with when you mentioned a mother coming in or father saying, this is not choice. And I go, yeah well, why is it a choice? Like, why is it a choice for me to raise somebody who's going to be scared, unable to swim, unable to fight and yet, you know how absolutely terrible this world can be? That doesn't seem fair. So when somebody says, well, it's not fair to push them and put pressure on them. Yeah, but life's going to do that. Again, we're talking about degrees. There's no way in any world where I would put as much pressure as my father put on me, to my son, it's not going to happen.

Dave Camarillo:
There's no way in any world where I'm not going to make fighting a part of his everyday life. And I remember I was on a podcast with somebody and they're like, oh, so you're going to force your kid. I go, yeah absolutely. Like you force your kid to go to school. You force your kid to do these things that they have to do in life. Why are we not forcing our kids? I just think it's the semantics of it. It's the not using the word force. Well, my son, I'll tell you exactly what he says. I said, oh, we have Jiu-Jitsu tonight. He goes, awe, man. You know what I mean? Like, there's this weird, there's this, [crosstalk 00:24:57].

Emily Kwok:
I only laugh this hard because I get the same reaction.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. Yeah. There's this weird idea that I...

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. Yeah. There's this weird idea that I had in my head that my blood is a fighter's blood. It's old samurai blood, because I've been training since I was five and my dad trained judo and his dad was a boxer. Therefore, there's this weird thing in the blood that says that he's going to just train without questioning it, and he's going to love it. No, no, no. It's called genetics. Every child is different. You have to customize the pressure you put on them. Basically, how educated you are in different genetics ... I call kids genetic. They're just all genetic based in terms of how they deal with natural thresholds of stress, and then what you have to work with in the beginning. My son doesn't seem to be a Superman, like a lot of black belt fathers might think their sons are going to be. Every son, every daughter, they're scared. They wonder about the world. They want to understand it.

Dave Camarillo:
I had a conversation, and this is getting a little bit deep, but it's reality. My son broke down crying when we talked about death.

Emily Kwok:
Wow.

Dave Camarillo:
It was just a thing that they just start talking about. And he literally had the epiphany that I'm not going to be around forever. And he says, "I don't like that. I'm not a fan of that." So what I tell my son is that's why we do jujitsu. And every time we see a bully, watching a movie, there's always bullies, watching a movie, and my son will be like, "That kid's a bully." And I go, "Yeah." I go, "That's why we train." And so when we talk about indoctrinating them, indoctrination is actually a good thing, because the definition is very similar to learning. When you learn something, you need to block out other things. You can't learn everything at once. You restrict yourself during those moments. If it's guitar, you're not learning how to block a punch during playing guitar. You know what I mean? You are surgically precise and very deliberate on your method of what you want to learn at that moment.

Dave Camarillo:
For me, I'm absolutely indoctrinating my son for reality. It's just my reality might be different than your reality. Your reality is, "Well, get good at social media," or, "Be an influencer." It might be. I don't know your household. I don't know your experiences in life. Mine is not. I've trained special operations, I've studied violent crime as part of my job. I've been in scenarios where I've been shot at, and shot people. And these are training simulated scenarios. I've trained MMA fighters at the highest level. I've done a lot of these crazy things. And I have a hint of how absolutely terrible a violent confrontation can be.

Dave Camarillo:
I also understand spectrums. Well, everyone has to deal with a bully. I mean, adulthood, children, they have to deal with that. So I just don't think it makes sense to make the decision for my kids to be weak. My son is not going to be weak. Now, where I start tempering it is I don't need him to compete. I don't need him to be a champion. That is totally going to be up to him. But I want him, one of these days, to be held down and someone has a choke and he's about to pass out and he has to tap to it. So he understands how to have some kind of control over his emotions during absolutely terribly stressful situations. Because without that type of inoculation, we're basically kicking them out of the nest without wings.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. You actually touched on something that I was reflecting on a lot last week, the idea of what I call the middle, or just the privilege that we live with today. And the fact that so many, we're raised to value being comfortable. We want to have all these nice things. We want to feel good. We want the air to be a particular way. We want to drive around in a particular car. The middle is the ideal place to be. And I think so many of us are raised thinking that if we just make the right superficial choices, we can just choose to exist in that zone, that comfort zone. And if there's anything that fighting has taught me, it has been the extremes. And that to calibrate yourself to that middle, or to find the balance, you can't just choose to be in the balance of something. And you can't just equip your children with the ability to just always be balanced about things.

Emily Kwok:
But to be able to find that zone where you have the comfort, where you have stability, you have to know what's on the extreme end, both ways of the spectrum. So what is the absolute worst scenario, and what is the absolute best scenario? And what is your limit? And how much can you stretch yourself? Because if you don't know what your tolerance is, then you don't know if you're going to take yourself over the edge. Versus knowing what the top and the bottom is, and then knowing where you need to be most of the time. But then, when you are stressed, understanding how deep you can really go in order to survive in those situations. And survival in the fighting context can be physical survival in a battle. But for most people, I think they relate to the idea that survival is just mental survival. Like how much can you take when you get depressed or something bad happens to you in your life or at your job?

Emily Kwok:
And what I see happening today is there's so few people, I mean adults, let alone children, that are equipped to be able to tolerate these types of stresses, because I don't think many people have been necessarily exposed, or as we're talking about, indoctrinated to understanding what those stresses and what those stresses are supposed to teach us. Stress isn't just there to give us a hard time or teach our kids a lesson, but it's really there to help you understand what you're capable of. And so that's really been on my mind recently, because I was thinking about someone that I know that was like, "Oh, I don't like to exercise. I don't like to sweat. Sweating makes me anxious." And I thought to myself, "Well, what the fuck are you going to do if you don't have a choice?" And I think that we have gone to a place today where maybe we're just all a little bit too privileged in thinking that we always have a choice. And the reality is sometimes you don't.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. Yeah, we're absolutely too privileged. I find myself. I can't think of a ... well, I can think of a situation. Let's just say I was working in a movie and I was laying down dead in the movie. And there was water on the ground. And I forgot who it was, but they try to make you comfortable on set. I don't want to get too into it, but there's these little cutout rubber pieces that they can put underneath your face, the face that's touching the concrete, to make it more comfortable. It's basically a makeshift pillow that you can't see on the camera because it's so small. And I was like, "I don't want one." And you can see redness, because my face is over and over going in that concrete, and it's wet and dirty. And the look she gave me was like, "Are you out of your mind? Why wouldn't you want this?"

Dave Camarillo:
And I'm not saying that to make people think that you should push yourself as hard as I've pushed myself. And that's my point. There's degrees of success, I think many degrees of success, that are definitely lesser to maybe find yourself in a position in your adult life where you're not as much of a masochist as I am. You know what I mean?

Emily Kwok:
At least you know this about yourself.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. Right. That's the thing. I've hung out with so many people and I've trained such high caliber tier one type of people, and yeah, pain becomes normal. It's just not a big deal. And they're still smart about it. Like putting my face in the concrete's not a big deal. It's not going to hurt me the next day. But there's people who have that idea that also go the other side, and they're not very smart about it, and they destroy their bodies too early in life. But again, there's a balance. Things aren't black and white.

Emily Kwok:
It's funny, because I don't know if it's the mothering in me, but I guess about, I don't know, eight or nine years ago, I had children at that point, and I started pulling away from doing higher level competitions. I started unraveling a lot of the injuries that I had built up over the years. And it was such an interesting experience to be pulled back from the edge and to understand what normal pain was, versus the tolerance that you develop when you're accustomed to just pushing through everything. And I work with a physical therapist and a Pilates instructor one time a week now to help me with a lot of my lower back and hip issues that I have, both from childbirth and also from training. And it's the hardest thing. It's the hardest fucking thing for me to not push through. And even he said. He goes, "It's really unique, watching you train, because you're hardwired to get your body to do shit that it actually can't do. But your body will figure out a way to make it happen because mentally, that's just the way that you're wired now."

Emily Kwok:
And almost ... I don't want to say sliding backwards, but I guess just expressing the other or trying to touch the other end of the spectrum, and trying to feel the little things, the little things that I've hardened myself against, that's a real challenge for me today. But I just wanted to add that into what you're saying.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. I would say I think one of the issues I see with even ... well, we'll say high level competitors, or competitors, is they only pick one of those. So the opposite also can be true, where I don't try to push through anything. I try to go around it. Which is essentially the quintessential philosophy of jujitsu; go around the power. And we talk about spectrums. You think in terms of spectrums, and that's my concept for everything. It just starts with a spectrum. But I think, like I said, instead of being black and white, you should have periods of your training where you are pushing through everything.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Camarillo:
And then periods where you are just extremely intelligent. I call it cave man and scientist, where you're literally moving around the power and you're being very fluid and flowy. Because sometimes you need to be a rock, sometimes you need to be water.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. When I went back to compete in 2018, it had been six years since I did any sort of competition at all. And I went back to do the old lady division at Masters. But when I was training for it, the only thing I knew was training six days a week, multiple times a day, and just grinding. And I thought, "Well, I can't do this with two little kids and a job." And what can I actually ask myself to do?" And so I figured out a training schedule that was going to work for me. And it occurred to me, as I was training, that I'd developed this rhythm where I would train and I would say to myself at the end of a session, "Well, what went well? And what are one or two things that I should really go back and work on?"

Emily Kwok:
And I was talking to one of my mentors and friends, Josh, and I said, "I understand that this is probably a healthy mindset if I'm learning. Like if I'm in a state of wanting to acquire new skills and I need to be playful, that here are some things that I did well, and here are some things that I didn't do well." And I was like, "But if I'm going to go compete, and it's been six years, so mentally, I'm a little rusty on this," I was like, "I'm thinking to myself that it's not the best mindset to go to battle with." And he said, "You're right." And I said, "But I don't want to get too cocky, or I don't want to develop too hard of an edge in the wrong way if I tell myself to just focus on what I'm doing well." And he goes, "You will not lose your humility by learning to flex that muscle of being the warrior." And he's like, "So maybe the way you think about it is when you're going in to train, there's certain days or certain weeks that you decide, 'I've got to go in and be the warrior. I'm here to take heads.' And then there's other days or other modes where that's not the energy you bring." But he goes, "You have to learn to flex it like a muscle, or turn it on and off like a switch."

Emily Kwok:
And it was such a valuable piece of information for me at the time, because like you said, when you see the spectrum, you know that you don't have to be in one place the whole time. But nonetheless, sometimes there are occasions where you need to go to the extreme. And I think it's what's helped make me successful at performing when I've had to perform, even though mentally it's a hard place to negotiate at times.

Emily Kwok:
So I'd love to actually get into some of the various disciplines that you've practiced and acquired, because you started with judo, you moved into jujitsu, I believe partially because of injury. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. But then also this relationship you have to being a student, because you take things so deeply that you end up performing at such a high level and understanding a lot these arts. And to be able to integrate forms together, such as you've done with gorilla jujitsu, and merge some of the judo and the jujitsu practices together, but then to also continue learning. And you spoke earlier about some of the new arts that you're picking up. So I wanted to ask you what it's like for you to be a student. And what do you think being a good student entails? And when is the moment where you feel like you've learned something deeply enough that you can then integrate it, or perhaps teach it, or take it to a new level?

Dave Camarillo:
I think, first of all, it's my makeup. I mean, maybe it's ADD; I just get bored. I just get really bored really easy. And I've spent so many years of doing extremely tedious things that with judo, you're doing [foreign language 00:41:13], which is repetition. Basically, it's a fraction of the throw. It's upon entry and out, and enter and out. And that type of discipline is rarely seen, for example, in jujitsu. It's rarely seen. In jujitsu, it's flowing drilling. It's just much more enjoyable, because first of all, you're on the ground most of the time. I consider every take down and throw in jujitsu a judo or wrestling move. Jujitsu to me is mainly [foreign language 00:41:51], which is ground. But you're doing these flows, and it's fun because your partner is moving, it's choreographed. I'm talking about flow drilling. But you're not doing a fraction of it. You're going all the way through and moving.

Dave Camarillo:
Well, in judo, we do [foreign language 00:42:08], which is throwing practice. But I can't take falls like I used to. And when I was a kid, what you want to learn is the entry, because the entry's the most important part. Because basically the entry deals with timing and off balancing of your opponent, which is [foreign language 00:42:23]. If that's not good, then nothing else will be good, because you're just going to get countered.

Dave Camarillo:
Basically, the reason why I think I became so stubborn in learning other things is the tediousness of judo. And failure is basically if your entry is bad, you're going to get countered. It's not that you're going to miss the throw. It's that you're going to get thrown. And so you're learning how to be okay with the more I extend myself, the more I'm allowing my opponent to have an entry on me. But you have to pet the cobra, like in boxing. You can't punch someone in the face if you don't get near the pocket. And so it really teaches you timing along with the violence of speed. But you're doing a fraction of it over and over again. So I think that helped me with the discipline of failure.

Dave Camarillo:
With my new job, I have to kind of learn everything. Everything. Whatever skill, for example, is in an action movie, you've got to learn it. Which is crazy, because I'm 45 doing this for the first time, which is stupid. But I was learning nunchucks, for example. And again, just to learn it. I saw it, I picked it up. Someone says, "Do you want to learn this?" I said, "Okay." And nunchucks are really awesome because you hit yourself in the head more than you catch the dang thing. It's immediate sanction to a failed flow and control. And that reminds me of judo. If I have a fail entry, I just get slammed to the ground.

Dave Camarillo:
So I think it's that mindset that has helped me transition into other things, along with what I already said. I think I've done so many [foreign language 00:44:32] and so much judo as a child, I don't want to do the same thing over and over again ever. I want to constantly transition into different things. So with gorilla jujitsu, I actually sat down with Danaher in New York City and he pointed out, "Dave, you have really good transitions." And that was it. It wasn't much of a ... anyway. And so I was so young, and I was hung up on everything he said, so I'm like, "All right, well if I'm good with transitions, then I need to live up to that compliment." And that's what I try to do. Anyone compliments me, I go, "I better live up to that compliment."

Dave Camarillo:
So I really worked on transitions. And so transitions to me is moving in these choreographed pathways to an end goal. So basically, it didn't start on the ground anymore. It started standing. Because I was a judoka and I was doing jujitsu. So my what we call threads are transitions from standing to the throw, whether I'm passing guard to side control. Maybe he squirms, I take the back and then I do the only submission I know, which is an arm lock. But that is like neurological pathways, but these are actual realistic choreographed techniques that lead to an end goal, which is the finish. And so I started really doing a lot of that and really perfecting that.

Dave Camarillo:
And then, as the years went by, with different alliances and friendships and relationships, I added everything I know. I started studying aikido for the footwork. I studied karate for the striking. I did some of the MMA entries. Maybe the combative entries, blade entries. Now I'm learning sword, or gun. And maybe that's why I got a little bit of a foothold in this environment, but you take a basic understanding of movement and you just keep adding variables. And that's basically the job I have in special operations. It's the job I have the limited time I've been in doing stunts. And to me, I just get bored with a system. A system in jujitsu is awesome, but I talk smack about everything. When I'm wearing the jujitsu hat, I talk smack about judoka. When I'm wearing the judo hat, I talk smack about jujitsu people. For example, jujitsu people don't transition very well unless they're at a higher level of competition.

Dave Camarillo:
But yeah, I just get bored with systems because systems make you lazy. Yeah, I'm saying stuff that's controversial, but it's absolutely true. Systems make you really lazy. A lazy grappler. And we're talking about-

Emily Kwok:
That is so true.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. It's so true. Well, then people go, "Well yeah, but you need to know" ... I go, "Of course they're necessary. They still make you lazy." And that's my point of us not thinking in terms of black and white anymore, because things aren't black and white. If you go down one hole, you've got to go all the way back to the surface to go down another hole. So that's why we talk about modes of learning. Modes of learning are systematic learning, principle based, conceptual and transition. Those are modes of learning for jujitsu. If you're not venturing out to different modes of learning, you can still get your black belt, but I just don't think you're very good. And that's not saying I think I'm good. It's just because I have outlined this understanding. And I think a lot of instructors and a lot of people are very narrow minded. Well then, to me, it doesn't end when you get your black belt. Then why not get better at transitions, or get better at this, get better at that?

Emily Kwok:
Yeah, it's funny. When I started jujitsu, visible progression, like getting the belt, was not really the intent of practicing. I think in my years, and I started around '99/2000, you started a little bit before I did, but in my time, if you were fighting, you wanted to learn. You just wanted to learn how to fight. And the belt really was an afterthought. I didn't even start jujitsu thinking that a belt mattered, or that there was a black belt. I didn't think about world championships. I didn't think about any of that. I just thought, "Oh, this is kind of fun. This is kind of neat to learn how to fight and to defend myself. And I'm kind of enjoying it, and it's different, and I want to keep doing it." But that's changed so much over the years. And now I find there's a lot of people that gravitate to jujitsu, or other martial arts or sports like it, because they're looking for that gratification, or that signal that they're leveling up. And to me, it feels quite artificial, because now that I've been a black belt for some years and I've promoted some black belts, it's interesting to me how many people quit training after they become a black belt.

Dave Camarillo:
It's incredible.

Emily Kwok:
Right? And in my eyes-

Emily Kwok:
... black belt.

Dave Camarillo:
It's incredible.

Emily Kwok:
Right? And in my eyes, I feel like the black belt to me signaled, "All right, young one, you've learned the basics. Now you have a license to go learn and maybe now you can really learn because you're not preoccupied with having to demonstrate things to people. But now you have some language to be able to move."

Emily Kwok:
I've been a black belt now longer than I've been a leveled color belt coming up, and I can't say that it's easy to continue practicing primarily also because my life has become more complex and I have children and I have other obligations and responsibilities, but what always brings me back to it is I always have to tell myself, well, why did you start doing this in the first place? Because training has not gotten any easier. In some ways it's actually just only gotten harder and worse because I'm battling age and injury and obligations and responsible, and the people that are coming into it don't have a lot of those things or they don't have them to the same degree. And I'm also battling, as you mentioned before, ego and reputation. Where they say in jiu jitsu, "Leave your ego at the door." And I'm like, no, you don't really leave your ego at the door. You have to bring your ego to the mat, because if you don't, you're just going to lose every time, which is not the purpose of what we're doing.

Dave Camarillo:
Absolutely.

Emily Kwok:
But we do have to learn to recognize and manage how we feel about that ego.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah.

Emily Kwok:
But to what you're saying, it's interesting to me how we choose to come to the table, what value we're getting from the type of training that we're doing and how we relate to what learning is. Are we you really invested in learning or are we doing it for some other artificial reason? It's always impressed me that you have taken on so many disciplines, because that's not easy to do either, although, because I think a lot of people, as you said, once they're integrated in a system or they become good at something, they don't want to be at something again, because it took them so long to get good at something.

Emily Kwok:
So to humble yourself essentially over and over again and submit yourself to "No, let me learn something else that's new." I've found as I've tried to take on new things, like I'm trying to learn how to surf, horribly. Surfing, I think has been maybe the most difficult thing I've because the foundation itself is variable, the water is never the same. So as a new student, in some ways having gone as deep as I've gone to in jiu jitsu, which I could still continue to go way deeper, I find that sometimes being a student is pretty liberating because you're allowed to explore and you're allowed to make mistakes, and I can take things on and I can just continue to repeat and enjoy the practice, as opposed to feeling like I have to make right, or I have to make do within something that's already been defined for me or that other people have formed themselves around, because they're accustomed to seeing something a certain way. So that's very cool.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah, absolutely.

Emily Kwok:
When you think about what you've learned, have you often gravitated to these different disciplines out of natural progression or necessity, or do you just love all forms of combat and you're just kind of taking all of these different forms on as you get through one and go to another?

Dave Camarillo:
Well, first of all, I can't speak of Aikido unless I've done it.

Emily Kwok:
Hmm.

Dave Camarillo:
So many people are bashing Aikido, but they've never done it. You know what I mean? Even some of the things they might even say about something might be true, but they've never done it. How do you have an opinion? No, no. You can have an opinion about anything, but how do you have a strong opinion about something that you've never done? I don't understand that concept.

Emily Kwok:
Just look it up on the internet.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah, exactly.

Emily Kwok:
They found it on Facebook.

Dave Camarillo:
It really is incredible. I'm not going to really talk too much about anything unless I have a pretty high degree. I'll even, for example, in special operations, I've been working with an elite unit for over 10 years, and we do these scenario and I've been on every end of the scenarios, I've been the bad guy, I've been the whatever. And that gives me a certain perspective that 99.9% of people will never, ever have, but that doesn't make me an expert. You know what I mean? I can only talk from my experiences. I'm not in the military, I'm a civilian. I will never truly know what it means to do what they do. But at the same time, I'm a professional observer and I've been trusted and I have a ton of experience doing that and training them, but also learning from them.

Dave Camarillo:
Even then I will say, whatever I'm saying about this has a bit of ignorance in it because I wasn't there. I wasn't there when real bullets were flying past their heads. But I honestly think that starts before any of these things we're talking about. And the thing I've learned is the humility is you have to just be quiet and talk less and just do something in your life.

Dave Camarillo:
I just feel these days, that's not a part of our value system anymore. It's not work hard and do these things, and venture out and have these experiences before you open your mouth. It's the opposite. It's scream at the top of your lungs before you've done anything, and I struggle with that. I was a kid too, but I'm trying to make up for it in my later years of I just want do everything and then not talk about it. Even though I'm on a podcast talking about it. I feel like even the things I'm saying on this podcast, I go, "Man, I better earn this," which means I'll be in a training session or doing something. Military's a good example. I don't say no. My record of teaching and training is 12 hours straight with no breaks.

Emily Kwok:
Jesus.

Dave Camarillo:
The only breaks were just to drink water. Again, I'm a crazy person to even people who are accomplished martial artists. If they stick with one art, then of course, I probably sound crazy to them, but I internalize the risk and I try to understand the risk that my clients put themselves through. We call it putting themselves in harm's way for my benefit and for, and for the benefit of the person next to them. I will never have to do that. When I go to my work there, I'm not getting shot at by anything outside of a sim round. My job's pretty safe, especially maybe to somebody with my experience, but they're the ones going down there, I've had friends not make it home. So I internalize that reality and I energize myself when I don't feel like it, and I don't say no in that job. I say yes.

Dave Camarillo:
I literally remember a 12 hour... I beat my record. I had a 10-hour day. And then I did a 12-hour day. I started at 5:00 in the morning and ended at 5:00 at night, and that's literally sparring and teaching and being a role player and doing all these other things. So I think when you're younger, you just talk less and you just focus on... We have a saying with, I have actually have a company called Crave the Battle, the end of that is, "Not the glory." Too many people think of glory because I think our society hits them in the face with it from day one.

Dave Camarillo:
That's some of the things I'm trying to combat with my son. So if I'm forcing him to do jiu jitsu, I'm trying to derail him from all the terrible things he's going to be exposed to, starting with social media and all these other things, that I don't have control over. What I do have control over is when he's zero years old to 18. I have control over that, and I'm going to do my best to be a good example and keep him training because he doesn't know any better. Even when he is 18, he doesn't know too much so... Anyway.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. No. In many ways when you talk about crave the battle, not the glory, I feel like the world we live in now, even more so than ever before is crave the glory, not the battle.

Dave Camarillo:
Right.

Emily Kwok:
And people, the idea of battle is just such a foreign concept to them, and they're just like, "But why battle if I don't need to?"

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah.

Emily Kwok:
And just so many shortcuts are valued.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. Again, I'm not perfect. I'm barely a father. My son's five, but when you... Okay, so I'm going to walk you through what you've experienced and what I've experienced. My son's born, and if you know anything about children, they cry when they need something. Or babies. They cry when they're hungry, they cry when they need changing, they cry when they don't feel good. They're the most needy things in the world at that moment. And stop me if I'm wrong, but it's our job to slowly strip them of that neediness, not to nurture the neediness.

Emily Kwok:
Yes.

Dave Camarillo:
I'm not saying it's easy and I'm not saying my son's going to be amazing. Me and my wife do our best, and I have an amazing wife. But that's my job. That's our job. It's not our job to shield them. I think it's our job to strip them.

Emily Kwok:
Who are you talking to, Dave?

Dave Camarillo:
Strip them of that neediness.

Emily Kwok:
I love that. I haven't heard it expressed that way before, but that's quite an eloquent way of saying it in terms of sometimes as a parent, you can't express what you think your job is or what it is that you're trying to do, but that expresses it quite concisely and nicely. Because I have to admit I've looked up to you for a long time. I've known about you back in the day, before we had cell phones and social media. You were not-

Dave Camarillo:
Wow.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah, I don't remember that. When we used to read books and we had magazines. I felt like a lot of times in our sport, it was your reputation would proceed you. You would hear about somebody who trained with this person or saw them somewhere, and then you'd think, "Oh, one day I'll meet them," or, "One day I'll get to watch them compete," or, "I'll encounter them." And you were probably one of the first people to come on my radar in that way. And probably because you were also one of the Americans that were out there, pioneering a sport that essentially was new. When I got the opportunity to meet you a handful of years ago, there's that saying, "You should never meet your heroes." And I have to admit, there have been a few times where that saying is certainly rung true and it rang extra true for you.

Dave Camarillo:
Okay.

Emily Kwok:
But no, it was-

Dave Camarillo:
This is exactly going how I thought it was going.

Emily Kwok:
But it's interesting because we've had some conversations over the years. But just in what we've been talking about, the last 15, 20 minutes, I think this is why I have always appreciated being around you, is there is a certain gravity to who you are and what it is that you've done and what it is that you've put yourself through, that you are then able or willing to share with others. I think it's that sense of experience and gravitas that is not as easily found in the world anymore and not just in the world at large, even within what we do. There's so many people that are happy to throw up Instagram videos of what they can do and who they've been around, but not many of them have really had to go do that in a pressurized situation.

Emily Kwok:
I have to say that sacrifice that you make, whether it be in terms of time or energy or your physicality, I just want to say, I really appreciate it because a lot of the things that you have graciously shared, these sort of lessons really don't get learned and they're never exposed to you when you don't take things to a deeper level. And I think it's a level that many of us crave, but not many of us are willing to actually go to. So for as crazy as you may be, I think it's the kind of crazy the world needs more of, not less of.

Dave Camarillo:
Right. That makes sense. Yeah. I think one thing, because we're hinting on influencing others to just be a better version of themselves, and I think that's what is missing people. You don't need to aim to be Marcella Garcia if you're doing jiu jitsu, just be the best version of you. But I think a lot of that has to do with the words we use. Again, you are your friends. My friends, or have in the past, I had a buddy, he's a spec op buddy, and over there in their teams, there's a high level of ownership and you have priorities and the person next to you is holding you accountable. That's why those people are so amazing. Some of the most skilled people I've ever seen in my life, but it's because their priorities become held accountable by the person next to them.

Dave Camarillo:
That word in particular, I remember I was telling my buddy, I go, "Man, I wish I had of time to shoot more," we're talking about firearms, because I learn everything that has to do with the trade, so I shoot a lot of guns. I've been shooting since I was five. But a combatants instructor who doesn't know how to handle a firearm doesn't make any sense to me. Just like a mixed martial arts instructor, even if you're a grappling instructor, it makes no sense for them to not be able to strike, because then there's a gap of understanding and you're just not on the same... Anyway, I was talking to him, I'm like, "Man, I wish I had more time to be a better shooter."

Dave Camarillo:
And he's like, "Dave, you do have more time. It's just, what are your priorities?" And something so simple, and literally, I felt embarrassed because in his environment, you don't say that. I'll just be honest, it becomes stupid to say something so stupid. What I mean by that is here I am, a quasi-normal person being influenced by these guys who've done some crazy stuff, and he's telling me it's not my priority versus me saying, "I wish." So I think if we change the words we use and if you say, "Well, I don't have time," well no, everyone has time, you just need to outline your priority.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah.

Dave Camarillo:
If you make shooting or jiu jitsu, or even just the concept of being better at self defense or whatever, if you make that your priority, you have time for it.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah, 100%.

Dave Camarillo:
We use these weak words and it really has a huge effect on our behavior.

Emily Kwok:
Well, they're essentially excuses or ways to make ourselves feel better about the things that we're not ready to commit to.

Dave Camarillo:
Right.

Emily Kwok:
I get it all the time when people are like, "Oh, I wish that I could do this or I wish that I could come to class more."

Emily Kwok:
And I'm like, "Listen, you're going to make time and money to do the things you really want to do."

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah, exactly.

Emily Kwok:
And if you're not making the time or money, like if you don't have the money to train because you'd rather buy a $5 cup of coffee every day, and I'm not shitting on those people because I like to buy a $5 cup of coffee every now and then too, but that's where-

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah, flat white with oat milk.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. With oat milk, right? Upcharge.

Dave Camarillo:
So good. So good.

Emily Kwok:
But if that's what you're doing, then are you doing that mindlessly or are you doing that consciously?

Dave Camarillo:
Right.

Emily Kwok:
And it's very easy for us to now just sort of pass the book and be like, "Oh, I don't have time," or, "I don't have money to do this." And you're right, we really do. I think that's something that I appreciate about you and I hope that the listeners really understand is to be actionable and to be conscious of those actions, to not just mindlessly, unconsciously go about leading your life when you have choices and those choices matter, and if you make good choices and you put your effort in the right places, there's so much that can be learned from that and so much success that can be had from that.

Emily Kwok:
But I agree with you, I feel like in many ways we've gotten to a place where it's easy for us to get stuck in our heads and tell ourselves a story and then complain about why we don't have the things that we want to have or why we aren't further along in life. I think so much of it just comes down to what we think, not really what we do. A lot of what I am mostly concerned about in working with some of the people that I do in the coaching and the consulting is really matching your words with your actions and tying your mind to your body, and how much of the time are we stuck in a cave somewhere? And how often are we willing to turn the light on and actually see what's going on?

Dave Camarillo:
Right.

Emily Kwok:
I don't think you get results if you don't do, and clearly you're a very, you're a very action-oriented person, Dave.

Dave Camarillo:
I try to be.

Emily Kwok:
So you've had the opportunity to learn and train with some incredible masters and accomplished people within their own disciplines and trades. What is your experience of that? Because I don't know, how do you relate to yourself? Do you consider yourself to know something about a few things, or are you perpetually a student, and when you have the opportunity to grip up or fire off with somebody who is really at the top of their discipline or their trade, what does that feel like for you?

Dave Camarillo:
No, I think I focus too much on my failures, which drives me to be better. You have to have confidence in what you can do. So these are modes, I think it's like light switches, I feel. In my head, the crazy place in my head, there's a lot going on. It's a constant battle. It's a constant fight for all kind of things, whether I'm tired or someone's yelling at me and I got to go run into this action scene, or I am hitting myself with a nunchuck, or I drop the sword, or I miss my mark on something, or there's certain moves in jiu jitsu I can't do anymore because my body just won't do them anymore. There's all these hangups. Or my performance. Why is my performance so bad today? That purple belt did way too good against me. So I think the most important thing for me is having the experience and balancing your ego with humility, so tempering it, but then moving on a spectrum. You know those lights? It's not a switch, you dim the light. It's a circle thing. You know what I mean? I can't even-

Emily Kwok:
I think it's called a light dimmer.

Dave Camarillo:
I could talk about 19 points jiu jitsu system with the leg and you flip it and you get this cat's paw grip, but I can't remember what that... Okay, it's a light dimmer. I think in things in terms of that. Instead of moving quickly to one side of the spectrum, I'm dimming at times. So I'm moving slightly to the left, I'm moving slightly to the right. So when these demons or whatever they are, and they tell me how terrible I am, because everyone has that. I've been taking acting a little bit. Had some acting classes. And my buddy was like, "Don't forget that your mind is going to tell you how terrible you are on the day." They call it on the day, which just means when you're... Sorry, the AirPod fell out of my cauliflower ear.

Emily Kwok:
Oh my God. How do you even get them in your cauliflower ear?

Dave Camarillo:
I smash them in and then slowly they dim their way out or whatever. They just work themselves out. I can only wear one and even the one is just... I'll be in a full, awesome, brilliant conversation, and then I don't hear anything. That's sarcasm by the way. I don't even remember what we were talking about. I'm looking [crosstalk 01:12:54] right now.

Emily Kwok:
Well, you're talking about dimming. You were talking about dimming and acting classes.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. So my buddy, he's an actor and he's really good, he helped me get my first part. I was in Sweet Girl. Have you seen the movie? Anyway.

Emily Kwok:
No, but now I'm going to.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah.

Emily Kwok:
That's one of those movies I always scroll past. I swear, I hate the way they write the descriptions for movies and shows because whoever is the writer just doesn't do a very captivating job. It's one of those movies I'm like, "I should watch this and I always go past it," but now I'm going to watch it because I'm going to look for your little cameo.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. I don't watch it, and they dubbed my voice, and I can only guess why. But anyway, in the end I was being coached to get at the part. So I did the acting with nobody around. Well, that's easy. And even that wasn't that easy, but then you're there on the day and they do this crazy thing called wild lines. Anyway, it's tough because our brains go, "You're not good enough. You're a martial artist, what are you doing, doing this?" There's all these doubts in your head, and the idea is that's just an internal battle and that's what I deal with, to make a long story short. So I have to temper my ego with humility and with the situation because that's what matters.

Dave Camarillo:
So I come in if I'm teaching a class with some presence, but at the same time, if a white belt asks me a question, I'm professional. And many times their questions are awesome. So I think you need to, instead of just getting inside your own head, you do have to stick and move, so to speak. I think that internal struggle is life long and it's forever, but I think experience helps you deal with that because your brain is really powerful and sometimes it's the one piloting the rest of your body.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Do you think, is that... Well, I guess if you want to call it self sabotage. Is that the same type of-

Emily Kwok:
Felt like self sabotage. Is that the same type of voice that you hear when it comes time to perform a physical act? If you're competing, or if you have to do something that's kind of high stakes? Or is that a different type of voice, is that a different experience?

Dave Camarillo:
No, it's the same, it's just amplifying. You add stress of real realism. When I was doing some of the stunts I did, to me it became real simple. We were doing stunts and I'm like, well, I'm in the scene, and if I mess up, everyone else doing the stunts with me in that scene has to do them again. And so to me, that became the focus versus I'm not good enough. And so that I'm not good enough, is a battle until I focus on something else, and then I answer that. And I say, well, I need to hit my mark because that's my buddy. And if I mess up, he's got to do that over and over again. And it really hurts what he's doing. And so I don't want to be that guy that is holding people back. But then you could think too much that in that direction and overwhelm yourself with stress. There is a balancing act. I think of somebody trying to, what are those logging people when they're trying to stay on the log. If they screw up, they fall in the water.

Emily Kwok:
I think they're just lumberjacks. I don't know. [crosstalk 01:16:29]

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. I just think it's that. And the point is, it's not going to go away. You just get really better at zoning in on what's important at that moment.

Emily Kwok:
Hmm. It's also, listening to you speak, in the way I feel you live this world, and correct me if I'm wrong. But there's quite an emphasis on, I guess, internal dynamics versus external dynamics. Right? So the balance of what it is that you bring to the table, and what you're motivated to do, and how you do those things. But then also how your actions are received or reflected. Or how accountable you have to be for what's happening around you externally.

Emily Kwok:
And maybe it's because of some of the combative stuff that you've done. Or the fact that you've come up quite brutally in a lot of martial arts. But there are repercussions to your actions. And it's kind of glaring and blatant in your face. I question how much most people relate to an internal versus external orientation to life. How many of us really consider whether or not this action we make will impact the people around us? Because it sounds like it's a pretty pronounced tension for you.

Dave Camarillo:
It's pretty pronounced. Say that last part again. Please explain that last part. I'm sorry.

Emily Kwok:
It just seems to me like listening to you speak over time about all of the various things that you've been involved in, and what it means for you to do all of these things, right? Even with regards to some of your friends and the conversations that you have. A lot of what you do, you are so action oriented. You do live so much through your body. Right? And I'm not saying that to say that you're not making coherent incredibly wonderful sense with your mind. Because all of the things that you do through your body are giving you these incredible insights.

Emily Kwok:
But that being said, your life experience through your body is very different from, let's say, a startup CEO who doesn't do anything in their body. But sits behind a desk and is constantly using their mind to grapple through life. And you're in sort of another realm. So I guess what I was pointing out is, it seems to me that you're so aware of that. You're so aware, not only of your physical presence in life and what you are doing, how you are interested in gravitating towards this or that. But also that you're always painfully aware of how your presence is integrated with the world around you, and the repercussions your actions have on others, and what it is that you're a part of or not.

Emily Kwok:
And it seems that tension's quite pronounced for you. Whereas in, I don't know, I feel like maybe most people don't think about things quite that deeply. They live their life, and if it happens to affect another person, oh, I didn't know. Or so be it. Okay, this happened. But it sounds like it's a major consideration for you because your life is so physical that you're always thinking about how you as a person, as an organism, move from this space to that space, and how it affects the people around you. And I feel in some ways maybe it has something to do with the accountability or the actionable way in which you choose to live. That you see the moving parts, you're not imagining the moving parts. Which I think is pretty unique.

Dave Camarillo:
Yeah. I think it starts with camaraderie. You understand in jujitsu, we fight each other, you fight your friends. You have genuine people that you absolutely love, outside of your family. You love to hang out with them, you like engaging in thoughtful conversations with them, maybe you see them at Christmas Eve or whatever. And they're a joy in your life. You are very happy to have them in your life. And next thing you know, you're on their back trying to choke them until they tap. And you know you're doing them a disservice, if you don't go after that choke with everything you've got. And I'm not talking about being rough and clumsy with it. We're all precise so we don't bang their head or hurt them. But there's still tons of tension within that, and a deliberate act of strangulation. Where they have a choice, fight out of it or succumb to it.

Dave Camarillo:
That's the greatest spectrum I can think of. The joy you get from hugging somebody, and then the joy you get from choking them. And it's the same person. It's absolutely amazing. It's one of the most amazing... I mean, we talk about drugs. It's one of the most amazing drugs, highs, I don't know if that's the right terminology, but just such a great high of life. Yeah. I got a buddy, his name's Mike Cruz. He's opening a Gorilla Academy soon. And when we train, we train so hard, nobody else exists on the map. Because I put on different hats, whether I'm an academy owner, or the head of Gorilla, or I'm talking to a parent who has a three year old in my program. Right? And one of our programs. Those are all different hats, very professional, I'm like, Hey, how you doing? Good. And I like that hat. But I don't always want to wear that hat.

Dave Camarillo:
Sometimes I want to put a hat on where I'm with my buddy, Mike he's at our Turlock Academy, he's raising some animals, but he's an animal. And I'm throwing him through the wall and he's throwing me through the wall. And we're right next to normal people doing normal jujitsu people. And we don't run into anybody, but we are splitting hair. It's like slipping a punch. We're going right next to people smashing. And if we are in the middle of a cafeteria, there'd be broken chairs and tables and food everywhere. You can't replace that in my life. Nothing will ever replace that. That feeling I get from trying to beat down one of my great friends. And then the friendship from that, the trust. He can call me three in the morning and I'd be there. I don't think I've forged relationships that are like that outside of fighting.

Dave Camarillo:
And so that's one aspect of it. And so for me, I think because I have such a high sense of camaraderie. I understand camaraderie. We all have camaraderie for different things in different levels. I don't know that there's a higher level to that. In special operations, that's what they talk about as well. Because you're doing something extremely dangerous next to your buddy. And then you're going out and having dinner with them and seeing their kids grow up.

Dave Camarillo:
And stunts, it's very similar. So going into the stunt word world, for example, I understood that high level of comradery. So even if I'm a brand new guy going into this new field, I still equate that to the person next to me. And so I feel maybe to understand what you're talking about in terms of my self-awareness, maybe. It has to start from something. And it started from struggle, from the battle. But battling people that were right next to me also battling, and I... Go ahead.

Emily Kwok:
I was going to say, do you think it has something to do with the vulnerability that you expose? Essentially when you're battling with somebody, you're trusting that they're going to take you to the edge, but you trust them enough that they're not going to break you. Right.? Or I should say, figuratively, right? Someone could accidentally dislocate your elbow or something like that. I question that myself. What is that bond? And it's an immediate bond too. It's kind of interesting. When I moved to Japan for that one year. I felt like a complete foreign entity that I didn't belong anywhere. And I wasn't wanted anywhere except the dojo.

Emily Kwok:
When I went to a jujitsu school, I didn't need to open my mouth, I just had to slap hands and start training. And it felt like a place that I could belong, and trust, and where I was of value. And so when you're speaking about that level of comradery, whether it be with your special ops teams and who they're fighting alongside with. Or you're talking about a martial arts discipline. That level of intense combat where you bring each other to the edge, what do you think that quality is? Is it vulnerability? How do we gain that trust in each other?

Dave Camarillo:
Well, it's the yearning for the comradery. But it's the comradery. It's the high level of respect for the person next to me. Of course, there's a vetting process. I don't just train with anybody, especially now. But also it's the sense of duty. In my jobs, I tried to do... So let me go back to being an MMA coach when I was with AKA. It made no sense to me to just be the grappling guy, which that would've been perfectly fine for the time. I could've been in the corner and just studied grappling. And whenever the fight hit the ground, I would tell Bob Cook, because his voice is so... You could pick that voice out of anywhere. So the fighter could hear it. I would just give, all right, this is what I see, this is what I see, this is what I see on the ground. But that makes no sense because there's a detachment of understanding.

Dave Camarillo:
So camaraderie goes past the physical. It goes respect for the person next to you that they're doing everything they can to not just do their job. It's like showing up on time. Well, that's nonsense. I'm early. Why am I showing up on time? You have to be here by nine. Great. I'm there by eight. When I started my recent project, I did 12 hour days. I'm there at five and the sun's not even out yet. I go to these lengths to not only see who I can trust, but also gain the trust of the person next to me. Because without that to trust, then it's dysfunctional.

Dave Camarillo:
And so basically I'm trying to do everyone's job. And that's the way I'm learning with my new career. But that's the way I've always been is if I'm going to work with special operations, I need to make sure I'm shooting. I need to make sure I'm moving. Making sure I understand tactics. Making sure I understand the landscape to which they operate. It's the same thing with MMA. It's the same thing with Jujitsu. It's the same thing with Judo. It's the same thing now that I'm doing stunts. I'm editing footage, I'm running the camera. Because if I don't understand the camera and I'm doing a stunt, I don't understand what he sees or doesn't see. And that's the mentality, and that's the people I try to associate with, is the people that are like-minded that have the respect for each other's job to know each other's job.

Dave Camarillo:
And I think that's what's missing. It's not showing up on time, it's showing up early and leaving late. And that requires... That's the thing, if we crave the glory, we're like, well, how much am I getting paid? I've never had a job where I did a bunch of free work, that it didn't turn out good for me in the end. And I've done a ton of free work. I've done pro bono defensive tactics training for SWAT teams. I've done it for entire SWAT teams where two guys showed up, and they were already enrolled in my program. And then I did it again because those guys reported back, and they're like, that was the best cuffing, whatever, we've ever taken, we want to do it again. Next thing you know, there's 16 people there. Next thing you know, they're fighting to try to work me in their budget.

Dave Camarillo:
But even if I don't get paid on that, again, this is about priority. I have a priority to my family and I need to use my time wisely. But even if I don't get paid out of that, I learned with the experience. And now I know that those guys are putting themselves in harm's way with a better opportunity for success. There's not a job that I've ever done that I didn't go above and be on, not get paid, and still not be fulfilled. Because if I say yes to something, I'm going to go a hundred percent.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's that spirit of... As my friend Josh would say, being completely all in. That's missing, I think a lot from so many lives today, because we compartment what we will and won't do. And you holistically take it on.

Dave Camarillo:
I think the problem is, you listen to a spectrum, I hear a lot of talk about, well, yeah, but that adds stress to your life. Yeah. But like ego's the enemy. Ego's the enemy is [inaudible 01:30:31]. It's a perfect example of my frustration. Where careerism, I think clouds someone's judgment to actually what's being said. Meaning, when I look at ego as the enemy, you have a lot of people echoing that. And so then they don't do things that actually ego is required to do. They literally transform their mind to where they think, well, oh, that's fighting, so that's not good for anybody. I think it's literally morphing people into not accepting reality where the world is tough, nobody's getting out of it alive.

Dave Camarillo:
And to prolong this experience, we need some kind of fight in us. To raise my son up right, he needs to know his dad's a fighter. And his mom is a fighter. To me, that is absolutely part of our value system. But if you read the book, Ego is the Enemy, which is a phenomenal book, but it's not ego. You have to have ego. Ego is the thought of self in contrast to others. When you're mounted on me, and you're choking me, I'm not thinking about anybody but me getting out of that choke.

Dave Camarillo:
And again, there's going to be some gray area. It might be 80/20. And that 20% of me thinking of you is just not being reckless to hurt you. But I still need ego to push myself out of that fight, out of it, and see where my threshold's going. A choke is a perfect example. Arm bars, they can happen really fast, you get hurt. A choke, everyone has a few seconds, and then they alleviate pressure, and they can fight again. That's a true testament to your threshold. And you can tell that, cause you're a world champion. Your threshold to chokes is way higher than a black belt whose never competed.

Dave Camarillo:
Because if you start feeling those juices flow, and you have those memories of competition, and you're feeling it that day, you're going to fight it, and you're going to shove it down their throats. Know what I'm saying? Really what I want people to understand is, you don't have to be crazy like me. You just got to be a better version of yourselves. And stop being so controlled by the fads, and the black and white talk where stress is bad. No, no. Without stress, we wouldn't realize our thresholds and we wouldn't fight to keep our sons and daughters safe. We wouldn't have that in us.

Emily Kwok:
Well, I think it's so much of what is so much of what is projected upon us is the superficial understanding of what these things really are. And I think so much of what we've talked about is the depth that's required to really understand what the fuck is going on. And that most people don't want to, maybe the real thing here is they haven't been raised or conditioned to want to look under the covers. And maybe that requires too much. But when I think about raising my children, especially for the world that they're going to be living, as they become adults. If I don't equip them with some ability to push through, and to fight, and to know where the hell they are, and where they need to get to. If I don't teach them to be able to discern those things, I feel like I would be failing them.

Emily Kwok:
I don't want to leave the planet unless I know that my kids are going to be okay. And knowing that they're going to be okay, means that as a parent, sometimes I put them in situations where they have to really struggle. Because it's these types of coping mechanisms and it's the ability to navigate your emotions and your struggles. These are the things that I think are most important to the way that we thrive, or the way that we fail. And I don't think it's ever been so pronounced. It was one thing for me to experience that as a person, totally different thing when I've had children, and I feel responsible for, I don't want to say for their success. But just to make sure that they're going to be able to handle the stresses of life, those are the things that are most important to me. And I'm sure you relate as a parent. You're just like, this is an entirely different ballgame. It's not just about me.

Dave Camarillo:
And, oh my gosh, it changed everything. Changed everything. It's just amazing. The whole thing is... And there are times where I have doubt. Am I not hard enough on him? And then he'll surprise me. And I'm like, all right, it's working. And you hide your face because you're either proud or you're about to tear up. You're walking this emotional roller coaster. And here's the thing, we're not black belt parents, nobody is. When you have a kid, you're just like, I have no idea what I'm doing. But the one thing certain is everything you just said, I am in 100% to make him as nice, as polite, as professional, and as hardcore as he needs to be at any given moment.

Emily Kwok:
I do, I love that, I love the last bit. That element sometimes I think has gone by the wayside. And I always think about it. I want to be taken seriously as a person. I hope my children are taken seriously as people. And without some element of, I can do this and let me demonstrate to you that I can do this, that hardcoreness does not exist.

Emily Kwok:
Dave, I want to thank you for your generous amount of insight, and experience, and also your time. Coming towards the end of this short series that I've been developing. I was kind of stalling out on figuring how I was going to wrap this series up. Because I've had the opportunity to speak with some really incredible creatives and athletes and professionals. But there's something really nice about being able to speak with someone like you. Because I think the things that I respect so much about your career, and your presentation, and the way that you live, are not necessarily just headlines and things that I think about you.

Emily Kwok:
But in my limited experience of being able to be with you, there are certainly things that I feel as well. And so when I think back to sort of like the scope of being a master in apprentice or vice versa. I love the fact that I don't even feel like I have to ask you what you think an apprentice or a master is. Because I feel like in many ways you embody the evolution of really oscillating between the two all the time, and taking your life to new great heights. So I really, I'm very, very thankful. And with a lot of gratitude, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation with me. Just to close out, if people are interested in following you, whether it be through your teaching or other shenanigans that you're up to, what would be the best place for them to do that?

Dave Camarillo:
Just Instagram. That's pretty much all I'm on. Dave Camarillo, no space. And yeah, hopefully I can see people at seminars. I try to travel as much as I can to meet new people and teach the only submission I know, arm block.

Emily Kwok:
Which is a pretty good damn arm block, I will say. And why complicate if you're that good at what you do? But definitely check Dave out if he's in a city near you. I've had him a couple times at my school and have enjoyed learning from him in multiple places, definitely time and money well spent. So Dave, thank you so much and I wish you all the best. And I'll be watching Sweet Girl, not Sweet Grass.

Dave Camarillo:
I'm not in Sweet Grass. Oh, that's funny. No, thank you, Emily. Thanks so much. You're awesome, I love our conversations. Got to roll with you at Marcello's recently. It was great.

Emily Kwok:
Oh yes. That disaster of a day.

Dave Camarillo:
It was all over the place.

Emily Kwok:
Us old people. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Dave.

Dave Camarillo:
Alrighty. Bye.