Episode 7: Vince “Bear” Quitugua

Many moons ago, I was training with some friends in Philly and noticed a new gi that one of my partners was wearing. Up until that point, the uniform most standardly accepted was modeled closely after a Judo gi: heavy weave, boxy cut, and colored white or royal blue. The only real way to differentiate companies from one another was in their logo design. Her new gi was light weight, appeared to have a much slimmer profile, and was most strikingly focused around logo design. The logo was not BJJ centric at all. It was symbolically far removed from the traditional triangle we were used to seeing which represented the 3 points of contact one would aim to have in engaging an opponent. The Shoyoroll logo was a circle, with a wave dissecting the middle with three smaller circles resting underneath it. The color way was light gray contrasted by a lime green. The marriage of these two colors and the trimmer fit was intriguing and made me immediately want one too. Not long after, my husband purchased me my first Shoyoroll gi, The White Mamba, and it completely changed my notion of an ideal fit. 

There was a lot of pushback at the time from the ruling class of BJJ elites. The uniforms were considered to be flimsy, too experimental with their color ways, bastardizing respect on the mat with contrast stitching, inappropriate because of different colored fabrics, and ridiculous for their collaborations with other companies and designers - this was a martial art, not a fashion show. 

SYR as it is commonly known in BJJ circles had effectively broken the rules around what we wore to practice. Our uniforms were no longer drab, ill fitting garments for our partners to hold onto; the gi became a vehicle for personal expression and appreciation for art. Since their first Batch in 2008, Shoyoroll has revolutionized the way we show up to our practice - not just in aesthetic, but also in mindset.

The company’s motto’s “Be first, no less” and, “Rebels against the mainstream” are the most direct signals of how they’ve disrupted and awakened an entire industry, but to look more closely at their portfolio of work and learn about new projects Bear is involved in helps you appreciate how his unique experience of reality has given birth to change. It’s not often that a visionary comes along and has the ability to transform static energy into dynamic energy, let alone instigate a movement that shifts the greater culture permanently. In my podcast this week with Vince “Bear” Quitagua, we get a little deeper into the weeds about what is at the heart of a successful brand and more importantly, what is required for us to evolve broadly and deeply. 

His influence has helped save our culture from inertia.

I hope you enjoy this prolific episode.

Full Transcript:

Emily Kwok:
Welcome to the Master and the Apprentice with Emily Kwok, where we explore the path from apprenticeship to mastery. Today, I am super honored and excited to be speaking with someone that I have gotten to know a little bit over the years. This is fondly known as Bear. Most of us in the jujitsu community know him as the creator and the vision behind Shoyoroll, one of the most prominent brands in jujitsu, but he's also gone on to create other things of which most notably the last few years has also been Three Chiefs Brewing Company. Just to give you a bit of context, Shoyoroll's probably one of the most sought after jiu jitsu brands in terms of gis, apparels, and accessories. I think it goes back somewhere to 2005, 2006, if I'm not mistaken, in Guam.

Emily Kwok:
It started off in a much smaller capacity with some T-shirts and hats, and it's actually grown to probably redefine and push the boundaries of what we consider to be uniform and apparel in Brazilian jiu jitsu. I think they are probably one of the most in demand brands out there and they have also, in many ways, taken the brand outside of jiu jitsu, which has been interesting as well. They've collaborated with different types of artists and design institutions, such as RVCA, Umit Benan, Porter, Japan. We see them as always pushing the boundaries between sport and art, convention and creativity. I'm really honored to have you on here, Bear. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me.

Bear Quitagua:
Thank you for having me, Em. I'm honored and thank you so much for allowing me to jump on with you.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah, absolutely. Maybe for some listeners they might be questioning, "Hey, how does this idea or this theme of apprenticeship to mastery work with someone like Bear?" And so, I'm wondering if you would mind taking us through a little bit of your history in terms of how we ended up in this place, where you are. I mean, I largely see you very much as someone who is a visionary in what you do, but I'm sure that in your earlier days, you had to learn just like everybody else about how to build a brand and how to make this what it is. If you wouldn't mind taking us back maybe to where your inspiration started and discuss how you've built some of the things that you've been building.

Bear Quitagua:
Well, first off, I'm the apprentice and you're the master so you're going to have to share some of your wizardry with me on some of that stuff, but thank you for that. But no, I think for us, it's probably no different than many other people that have tried to create something and you're just trying to learn along the way, depending on the information that you get or where you're at in your life, and I think for us was really no different. I mean, to be honest, I would consider us still on the apprentice level, where we're just trying to get better and learn more every day and try things that are maybe a little unconventional and out of the box and just trying to consistently do things different.

Bear Quitagua:
I think that's probably more so what we do now. And in the beginning, it was just a standard hobby thing brand, make a T-shirt or do whatever in the beginning and just being influenced by whatever it is that we were influenced at the time, which was surfing, skating, a little bit of mixed martial arts and music culture, like reggae and everything else. And now it's just transformed and we're a little bit more mature as far as some things that we're into now compared to 20 years ago.

Emily Kwok:
When you had first started building Shoyoroll, did you have an idea or a vision for it to become something or was this just you in your garage or with your friends just fucking around with some designs being creative?

Bear Quitagua:
No, in the beginning, I had no idea and friends were just supporting me, of course, in whatever it was that we were doing. It's just a little crew of three or five or 10 people, whatever it was at the time. And before, I just used to write in textbooks because I was bored at school and that's how I rebelled a little bit. You want to be noticed and you're just tagging or graffiting or you're trying to make a mark and you want people to hear you or see you, even if they don't know who you are, per se. That's what it was 25 years ago in high school and then going into college, at that point, it's just trying to make five or 10 T-shirts and that's what it basically started out as is, making five or 10 T-shirts and giving them to friends for free and just doing that. I mean, it was just a form of creativity and just expression. But other than that, in the very beginning, it wasn't anything more than that, to be honest.

Emily Kwok:
Wow. Did you have any particular people or brands or anything that you looked up to? What would inspire you to even make 10 T-shirts and give them to your friends versus create a piece of art and throw it on the wall? I think there's something about being creative as an individual, but then the decision for a creative to then share what it is that they've created with others is, for me, a little bit something else. And I know that for some people their process and what it is that they do is very personal and private, but I think something to be noted about what you've been able to create is that it seems like you take something that means something to you, but whatever chord it is that you're striking with everyone else, it deeply resonates. What is it that made you want to share your creativity with the world?

Bear Quitagua:
I think, for me, personally, I think it's whatever your local surrounding is, and whoever will see and listen to whatever it is that you're doing at the time. And for me, it was at the time... I'm located in Orange County, which back then, was the Mecca for surf and skate brands. This is where all the headquarters were for Quiksilver, Billabong, all the big companies. And since that was an industry that I was heavily influenced from as a youth, the standards of what you had to produce at were... It was almost unattainable to be able to produce at that level, especially being that young and just learning art and creativity and just seeing what people were producing.

Bear Quitagua:
I think just being naive, it was more so, "Hey, if I can print my logo," or this art or whatever this design that I think is cool on a T-shirt, that was a win back then, but the reality was you're going against some of the biggest companies in the world that are designing amazing, amazing things at the highest level at that time. At that point, I was just like, "Ah, it's fun, but I'm not going to be able to produce a shirt like Quiksilver or Nike," or whoever it was at the time. I think my head, where it was, and of course, I probably aspired to try and be like them one day, but the realities of what it was day one was a little different.

Emily Kwok:
Bear, when I was just listening to you speak, you were talking a lot about some of the larger brands that maybe were around you and the scenes that you were into, and how maybe one day you thought about aspiring to be something like them, right? But when I think about my personal experience of watching Shoyoroll grow, I think when we're starting out in anything, many times we do imitate, right? It's the easiest path to, and it's the closest thing we can understand. If we don't understand something, we look for a template or we look for the way it's been done before. And if we're looking at becoming an athlete, I think some of it is, "Okay, let's practice and rehearse these moves and have a better understanding of how we imitate them. And then hopefully, we get to a place where we've imitated them enough that we can then make them our own." We internalize what that is.

Emily Kwok:
And at the higher levels, it is the athletes who have found their own self-expression through those movements that I think become defined as having their own style or having their own way about doing things. When you think the way Shoyoroll's been built, how do you relate to that dynamic of coming up within a system or a template, building yourself through signals and ways that you've seen been done successfully before you versus building things out your own way, because I think you guys are also noted for always breaking the boundaries a little bit or doing things differently. And I mean, even one of your early motto was, "Be first, no less." How do you relate to that dynamic of coming up through something that preexists and finding yourself through that or building your own process as it comes?

Bear Quitagua:
No, I think what you're saying too is something that I think about a lot and I think it's interesting because I think in the beginning, you learn a template and you figure out something that's maybe similar to things that are, let's just use apparel for example, just because technically we're an apparel company in an apparel space even though we specialize in uniforms. But to pretend that we were inspired heavily by brands like Stüssy and Nike and stuff that I just grew up with, I think it's a little silly. But I think once you get mature enough and you start to study and you start to try and learn, you try and understand what it is that you're trying to do, I think that's when it starts to become interesting and fascinating to see what you can do with it after the fact because I think it's pretty easy... Not easy. It's hard, but it's not as hard to just imitate another industry, another brand, another template. That's not the harder part of doing something that can be a little different.

Bear Quitagua:
And I think at the beginning, I think it was a dream to be like, "Wow, jiu jitsu," or a company that's producing something within this niche culture of grappling, is somewhat on par with brands that do things in skirts, surf, skate, basketball, whatever these larger industries are, and I think that's what you hope to get to one day and that's what we are hoping to get to one day. And then with time, if you start becoming a little bit more mature and you start to formulate and you start to fine tune your ideas and you try and build them to where they can be respected by peers outside in different industries, I think, for us, that's where it changed for us.

Bear Quitagua:
I think at the beginning, it was, "Hey, if we can just produce at the level of what a surf, a skating brand, a fashion brand and apparel brand could do, that was the pinnacle." But then with time, it was like, "Well fuck. Wait. Have you seen what surf and skate and hip hop has done with their labels for this amount of time for 20 years?" And then what's going to happen next with those industries? What are the companies within those industries going to do in the next 20 years knowing what happened 20 years before? And I think for me, it was more like, "Fuck that. Let's make stuff for our industry 50 years ahead and look back at it and say, "Wow, I can't believe that little niche industry did that shit."

Bear Quitagua:
I find surfing and skating specifically, I find what brands have done a long time ago and what the industry, what it's done a long time ago is unreal and I just wish that we can do something similar and inspire and other companies can do things as well within our industry and our culture to look at it in 20 years and be like, "Holy shit. Those guys tried something different," whether it was successful or not. They just tried to go for it. That's at least how I think about it.

Emily Kwok:
I guess it's long been known that you're... I mean, you're deeply into jiu jitsu in terms of the history of it and where it's come from and all the different players, and who's helped it get to where it's gotten to today, and I'm going to imagine that you probably apply the same intensity of study to a lot of other things. I'm wondering how much does looking at the past, or studying history, or studying what's been there, how much does that inform what you think about doing moving forward because you were just talking about looking backwards and seeing what has been done and you think about the progress that we potentially can make in our own industry. What importance or what weight does history play in creation?

Bear Quitagua:
I think for us, I'm not the craziest research nut, right? I'm only trying to find points of reference and doing a little digging and looking at what industries do. And in all honesty, the industry that we focus on, which is grappling and jiu jitsu and mixed martial arts culture, for me, what ever history was, I don't take that into consideration too much just because anything that we're trying to do is probably a lot further ahead than what a lot of people can consume.

Bear Quitagua:
For me, I'm always trying to benchmark and I'm trying to find references within other industries to almost try and be 15 or 20 years ahead of what those industries would appreciate as well and I'm just trying to pull that into stuff that we do, even though sometimes we're missing the target a lot with our consumers. For me, it's really just trying to plan long-term and just trying to do interesting things that are fascinating to me and hopefully it goes well. I'm not sure if that answered the question.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. No, it does. I mean, I think when we think about building something differently, and in your case, when you're trying to project or look down the line, sometimes where other people can't quite see that far yet, you do take into account what has worked, what has been, and then you think about what it is that you want to do differently and why. When you decide on a particular project or you want to take the brand in a particular direction, can you talk about maybe some of the successes or challenges you've had? You just referenced that sometimes things hit. Sometimes things don't. Does that matter to you or what inspires you to do what it is that you do and what makes you feel that's actually the right direction? Is that a personal feeling? Is that a collaborative feeling with the members on your team?

Bear Quitagua:
For me specifically, I think the stuff that our consumers that purchase our product, I think sometimes we try and push a little too far and I think sometimes it's... We always make the joke in the office is, "If there's something that I like, let's not make it because that's probably not going to do well at all." And probably 95% of the time, that's right on the nose and it's correct, and that's the unfortunate part about, not the unfortunate part, but at least for on the creative side, that's what chokes a company from continuing to be interesting is the normal, day-to-day stuff that you have to do as a business and as a company to serve a wide range of your consumers to make sure you're producing things that they can consume and understand.

Bear Quitagua:
And I think for me, that's the not so interesting part sometimes, is doing those things. But also, we have to pay the bills and we have to pay for people to work and everything else. That's the day-to-day, nuts and bolts stuff that we have to do. But I think for me personally, I think it's more of a personal thing than anything else just because I hold the brand at a really high standard to what I hope it becomes one day, and I think if we're not doing some of these interesting things that could put us in debt, a dollar or $50,000 or whatever the number is because it was this fun, creative idea that made no economic sense.

Bear Quitagua:
I think for us, that's the challenging part, and normally the ones that don't make any sense at all are the ones that I think are the best and the best and the most interesting ones to do. And like I said, it could cost a dollar. It could cost $50,000. If it's interesting and you're confusing the industry and your consumer, I think, for me, but you're looking at it 20, 30 years ahead, I think those are the ones that get me excited. I don't know. Maybe it's a little bit of the abstract, big picture artists, creativity, part of the brain, but when that clashes with the business part of running a company, I think that's why artists are amazing. They don't have to adhere most of the time before they become big and they have to follow all these rules. I think that's when it's the best for them. I don't know. That's [inaudible 00:19:56].

Emily Kwok:
Do you relate to yourself? I mean, I think it's pretty clear that you guys are very creative, but do you relate to yourself as an artist, or how do you see yourself working in this space because I mean, people could easily say, "Okay, well, you're the CEO", or "You're the head of this business or this brand," but the nature of your work is so creative. Do you see yourself as an artist?

Bear Quitagua:
Hell no. I'm not an artist. I'm not an artist. I'm not a photographer. I'm not a creative director. I just work here. I just make sure we don't go out of business every day. I can appreciate the weirdest people in the world and the people that are the most different, but no, 100% I'm not an artist, but I do appreciate people that are on their own wave and they're just doing their own shit. And whether they have one fan or no fans, or they have a few people that look up to them or they don't, I find an appreciation in that. I just think anybody that's able to dig in and do whatever they want and they really don't give a shit about anybody and they just do whatever they do.

Bear Quitagua:
They could be a fucking janitor that wipes the top of the trash can a specific way for 30 years. To me, that guy's a fucking legend and that's just his shit, or it could be somebody that sells paintings for $10 million because he's done it for 50 years and now he's known for a nail on the top of a corner of a canvas. I don't really care. I just like it a lot that people can do their own thing and the daily parts of running a business or the outside life doesn't interfere with some of the stuff that they want to do.

Emily Kwok:
How do you define what is worth keeping track of versus something that other people might think is mundane? How does that actually trigger you or inspire you to want to keep track?

Bear Quitagua:
It's hard because I think there's a competitiveness internally and I think from a personality standpoint, you're always striving to do something either bigger. If not bigger, than better. And I think also your surrounding and your peers sometimes become... They'll probably put you in a place where you're at. For me, sometimes it's nice to be in a little square box and just at work, but then sometimes it's also nice to just go and experience culture in different places and just get some exposure and see what that stimulates in the mind.

Emily Kwok:
Very cool. When do you feel in your growth that you actually had done something substantial, or that it went from being something small to being something that maybe felt more tangible or real because I think that's a difficult moment for a lot of people to define. Some people define it by, "Okay. I started making a lot of money all of a sudden," or other people define it by the amount of demand that there is around whatever it is that they're producing or doing. When did it strike you that this idea or this thing that you were just making for fun and these T-shirts that you were giving out to friends was granted maybe something bigger than yourself?

Bear Quitagua:
I think for us, probably the biggest, most challenging thing for us within our space, and the jiu jitsu space specifically, I think for a long time, people that do jiu jitsu specifically or any other thing, they want other people to know that they do it so that way you can have a common ground, or you can talk about the same things when you're out meeting somebody or having a coffee or you're grabbing a beer. And I think, for us, in the very beginning, just like all the other brands within the space, the last 10 or 15 years ago, you had to always put the word jiu jitsu on all of your garments or anything you made to be able to sell more items. And I think, for us, we did that for a long period of time, just because if you tried to put your logo or your mark on something and it didn't say jiu jitsu, nobody would really give a just because they wanted it to say jiu jitsu and nobody really knew what marks were within the space, besides maybe, I don't know, Gracie Jiu -Jitsu, but that also said Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, or a grappling figure or something.

Bear Quitagua:
I think for us, it was always a big goal, and a big goal was to be able to move the word jujitsu on apparel or anything that we made and with time, hoping that our IP and our mark would be enough for somebody to go out and identify when you saw our mark and our logo without saying, "jiu jitsu," to saying, "Hey, you guys, I saw the mark," or "I saw your logo. It must mean you grapple, or it must mean you do jiu jitsu, or it must mean you're into these things." I think for us, that was probably the biggest part of when I was like, "Wow, okay. Now we can remove the word jiu jitsu from the stuff we make and people can relate with just the logo and the mark," maybe similar to any other industry, whether it be surfing and other things where they're like, "Hey, well, you wear that brand. You must do yoga, or you must do surfing, or you must play basketball, or you must run."

Bear Quitagua:
I think for us, that was probably the biggest defining moment for us is. Once we were able to drop it from being so literal, putting the words on our goods, to just using our logo and having people associate our logo with the culture that we represent, I think for me, that was probably the biggest thing in all honesty and it still is.

Emily Kwok:
Wow. That's a really beautiful answer. I guess on a broader scale, why is that moment or why is that an important signal to you, to be able to drop the word jiu jitsu or the very thing that defines you? I mean, to some degree, it makes me think about the idea of swimming in a larger pool, if you will, or being recognized for your culture, as opposed to being just something within the culture. But what made you feel that was something that was significant for you because I think for many people, they can jump into any industry and just be like, "Hey, I just want to be the top of this trade," right? Why is it important to you to... I mean, would you say it's taking it outside of jiu jitsu? Why go out there? Why is that something that you have felt is important to you? What does that mean?

Bear Quitagua:
I think running a company, running a business, and making what sells within an industry, I think that's hard enough, but it's pretty standard to be able to go into any industry and sell goods and meet customers' needs by making quality product at a low price, mid price, high price, whatever it is that you're focusing on. I think that's pretty standard in any industry and good business people can do that. I don't think that takes much thought. But I think for us, we are the culture. This is our culture and I think if you're not pushing culture forward and you're not being a person that's helping making the pool bigger or helping progress it to get to the next level and pushing the limits, I think for us, there is no other way. I think that's probably the difference. Unless we're doing things to help the culture progress and adding to the pot, I think for us, that it's almost a disservice. It's something that I have zero interest in at all.

Bear Quitagua:
If the business was just to make uniforms and not progress culture, I wouldn't be running this company anymore. I wouldn't be involved in any way, shape or form. I think that's always been the mission is... To go back to an earlier statement, if we're not looked at the likes of skateboarding, hip hop, surfing, and just cultures that are interesting in 10 or 20 years, and we didn't chip in and we didn't help push the boundaries of what that is, and I'm not talking just doing a collaboration with some company or using an artist. I'm talking as a whole old and as an industry and as a culture from, the bottom all the way to the top, from a gym to progressiveness of ideas, to breaking down old structure of how classes are run and redoing what classes are and reshaping what that is, for me, that's pretty much everything.

Bear Quitagua:
That's just me personally and I think if our brand can't be a vehicle to help usher in some of those ideas, then for me, that's the only stuff I'm into, to be honest.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah, one of the things that's always struck me about you is that you're just never afraid to get into a space and scramble it and turn it on its head because jiu jitsu, for anyone that is not familiar with our sport that may be listening, there are a lot of, you could say old anchored traditions and ways of doing things. I mean, I suppose it's an element of hierarchy, but there are some very static ways in which we approach how we learn and how we behave. I mean, what gives you the balls? What gives you the curiosity and the ability you to go in and mix that up when for so many of us who are practicing this sport, we just come into it and we receive it as it's being given to us.

Emily Kwok:
But I largely don't see you playing that part and you guys have always come in and done things a bit differently. And to some degree, I don't know if there have been moments where you've had pushback, but you do keep deconstructing and rebuilding and broadening what we understand to be part of what we do, and that's not an easy role to play. What gives you that sense of, I guess, motivation or courage to do so because most people, I think, would be afraid to disrupt what was already there. And as I said earlier, in jujitsu particularly, there is a very heavy hand that will come down to strike you if you upset the powers that be.

Bear Quitagua:
At least for me, I grew up very conservative. My parents raised me pretty conservative, but they've also had very interesting ideas and appreciated a lot of things as well. But for the most part, I treat, I think, a lot of things that... Any industry or any idea or anything that's been done for 50 years and it's still being done the same way, I just see that as a very conservative or old way of doing things, and not that it doesn't work and that can exist. I think that's completely fine. But I think for me, I've always been somewhat of an outsider or I've also never really fit in, just generally. Maybe minority maybe, maybe growing up in growing up in California when I was a kid and I was a minority or whatever, then I moved back to the motherland and I'm from Guam. And I go there and I'm the state-side, gringo kid that's supposed to be from there. I think there's always been some somewhat of an outsider mindset and I've never really liked the structures and the powers of anything really, right?

Bear Quitagua:
I've always just looked at rules and systems and things... I just saw them as the framework of, "This is how the game is played." And after that, it was always like, "Okay, that's the way the..." And once you learn how the game is played, then you're like, "Well, why does it have to be played that way? Why is it this way? Why is it that way?" And then at that point, it's always to try and play along the lines to play within the game, but then also to always skate the edges to see what the possibilities are. And I don't know, maybe it's fucking laziness. I don't really know, to be honest. I can't like I can't put my finger on it, but I think there's something to be said about people are like, "Oh, there's hard work. There's this." And I agree to a lot of that stuff, but I think people forget. At least for me, I'm pretty fucking lazy sometimes.

Bear Quitagua:
I work hard as shit, but I also as lazy as fuck, and then sometimes I'll figure out the best way and the fastest way and the easiest way to look at something. I'm like, "That's fucking stupid. Why is it done like that?" I don't know. I think I read quote from Bill Gates or somebody, and they're like, "Find a lazy person and they'll figure out the best way to do something faster or better because they're just so lazy to do it the hard way or whatever." I don't know. I never stop thinking of work. I work 24/7 in my head and I'm always doing something, but as far as just being on the outside and looking at the rules and the structural part of things, I think maybe there's something there. I don't know.

Bear Quitagua:
But I'm always trying to de deconstruct and always trying to figure out new ways to look at new things. I think that's why I always find tech so innovating just because they look at old structural things and then they just destroy them by completely breaking down the structures of what the rules were. For me, I find that ultra fascinating. I think it's the coolest shit in the world, just to look at tech models and be like, "Oh, they just fucked up the biggest company in the world for a hundred years and they're a three year startup." That shit's super fascinating to me, personally.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. I mean, I think that the industry is largely evolve or die, and it moves so quickly. I'm involved in a little bit of tech startup stuff on the outside and as I'm learning more and more about the industry, it's fascinating to me how quickly it moves, and that if you're not on a dynamic front, you're behind already. Yeah, to your point, I see it. When I heard you talking about laziness, I relate to this myself a lot and something that I've had to sit with for a little while is that people know that I have three kids. People know that I run a school. People know that I run a few different companies and I have a lot on my plate.

Emily Kwok:
But one of the things that was introduced to me is this fact that, "Okay. Well, Emily, you're a really excellent executor. You can get in there and get a lot of shit done where most people wouldn't but because you are so good at that, you should be careful to not fill your plate all the time because the empty space that you cultivate or hold is really important for doing the higher level thinking." And so, when I heard you speaking about laziness, it's very hard for me to sit still and to not do anything. And in many ways, I think the reason why I'm involved in so many different companies and projects is because sometimes I like to think about one thing, and in the downtime of thinking about that thing, I jump into another arena and think about another thing. And so, I'm constantly brainstorming and my mind doesn't really rest, even though I might not be obsessively thinking about this one project the whole time.

Emily Kwok:
But the moments that I try to carve out for myself, where I'm not thinking about any of these projects and I'm just giving myself space, I always feel really guilty because I feel like I'm just dicking around. But to your point, and to the quote that you were trying to reference, I think sometimes that's true, right? When you have that bigger space to just let your mind float, that we give our brains and we give ourselves the opportunity to maybe think about things more deeply and be receptive to what it is that we're processing, as opposed to having to direct our attention all the time to, I don't know, putting a fire out or having to create some sort of a solution. I mean, not so much of a question, but maybe just a point that I think sometimes laziness or dead space is super important for creativity, no?

Bear Quitagua:
I think it's probably one of those cultural things, where if you can combine laziness with tenacity and hard work that are completely opposite of what laziness is perceived to be, I think you could find a happy medium and balance. And I'm not saying lazy, sit on the couch for five hours. I'm more just saying you can't have a laser focus on something for a long period of time because you get bored more so is what the laziness is that I'm talking about, probably similar to you. But the fact that Apple and all these companies are like, "Hey, take your 30 minute walk out in the forest," as opposed to being next to your computer, like an opposite company would be like, "You're not taking a walk for 30 minutes and you're not going to be lazy. You're going to be on your keyboard all day sending me reports." Now that laziness, in a sense, or having your free space, or your time to think and that's added to your work value and your overall, daily effectiveness, I think it's funny and interesting at the same time.

Emily Kwok:
While we're talking about different things that we might be inspired by, and I'm talking about the different projects or companies that I'm involved in, I'm wondering if you would mind speaking a little bit about, I guess, another passion or another thing of yours, which is a few years ago you popped up with Three Chiefs Brewing. And I am personally not so much of a beer drinker. I have a really hard time drinking alcohol. I turn really red and I get an immediate headache. I'm still trying to find my path into it, but from the outside, it looked extremely successful. And in many ways, the dynamic and the hype that you created, or that generated around Shoyoroll, because maybe that's not something that you necessarily intended to create, but there's such a huge demand for a lot of the things that you do. And I couldn't help but notice that externally, with your craft brewery, that the same dynamic came about as well.

Emily Kwok:
And so, how did beer come into the picture, or has it always been in the picture and I'm wondering if there's any relationship for you between what you've cultivated in Shoyoroll and also what started to grow in a completely different industry?

Bear Quitagua:
I think for us, we're I think learning over the last five years to 10 years on just how brands are built, looking at how disruption is done, and also looking at marketing and different things. I mean, for me, when I look at it now, I literally look at every single industry the same way. Marketing's marketing. Branding's branding. Finance is finance. Looking at P&L is looking at a P&L. For me, it doesn't matter what industry it is. All the shit's the same to me really, with of course, a little bit of differences depending on what the industry is. And I think for me, the beer thing was just more of a passion of me and a couple friends and it's been a passion for, I don't know, 20 years. Maybe 15 years. 20 is a little much, but maybe 15 years, and then maybe 10 years it started to get a little heavy and then it was more just like, "Hey, let's try this out and see if there's something there."

Bear Quitagua:
I try a lot of things and shit, I fail a lot. I fail a lot at a bunch of startups and just things that we're trying and then I learn from them. And the beer thing and running this brewery thing was one of those like, "Oh shit, it's a good idea," and then getting your feet wet and seeing what the industry is and seeing what it's all about was a part of the process. But yeah, I think for me, we have used a lot of the things that have worked for us, at least within running another company in a different space. And then for the beer thing, the hardest thing for that space specifically was we knew who the top 20 companies were in the world that were producing at the highest level that have been around forever and we considered them the top dogs.

Bear Quitagua:
And for us, the hardest part was like, "Okay, well, how do you build something to be able to coexist with these top 20 people or 30 people in the world, not even just in the state?" For us, the biggest thing was figuring out how to make a product that stood side by side with these companies. And then the next part of it was how do we get accepted by these companies to make sure that we're holding our weight to be alongside them at some of the better events and things in the world? Yeah, it was interesting, fascinating. We're still building it, but being able to do something like that, I've learned a ton just being in a brand new space. And then it also just lets me know that no matter what industry it is, a lot of the same rules apply and as long as you're building and you're learning and you're trying to do it the right way, at least in our eyes.

Emily Kwok:
Is it any easier for you to do this again? Let's say you started a third or a fourth company. Is there less friction for you to build and get to a more established place more quickly?

Bear Quitagua:
Yes and no. Maybe the older I get... I think the hardest thing in the world is to build a brand. I honestly do. I don't think there's anything harder in the world to build a brand that lasts. And I think to make a brand, I think that's easy, but I think to build a brand and to have it last and for it to do really, really interesting and amazing things over a long period of time, I think that's so fucking hard and I would never... I say it all the time and I keep on getting back into this serial entrepreneurial bullshit of jumping into another thing and trying to build another brand, and I always tell people, "I don't want to build any more brands. I'm fucking just over it."

Emily Kwok:
What are you? You're a masochist?

Bear Quitagua:
Yeah, I don't know what it is, but I hear it a billion times. "Oh, why don't you just start another brand? Hey, why don't you just do this?" I'm like, "Fuck no. I will never start another brand." That's the hardest shit in the world. I'm still trying to work on the brand that I'm working on now. What the fuck?" I'm like, "Yeah, but you can just start another brand and it could be cheesy or this, that," I was like, "No, even if it's that. Who cares? You don't even understand. That's just hard as fuck. Hell no. I would never do that again." I think for me, that's the hardest part. I think that's what makes a brand super successful. The person that's in it, they're living it and they're super obsessed with every little detail that's happening within that brand. It's basically like it's own human. Maybe even worse sometimes because there's so many other variables going on.

Bear Quitagua:
I think a lot of times people are like, "Oh, just do a logo and have a dope Instagram and hire a photographer and just pretend to get this and that," and I think that's a method as well, and just pay a shitload of advertising to Google and Facebook. I think there's a lot of space for stuff like that but for us, if there's nothing... Or just pretend you're into surfing or pretend you're into that, or just hire a surfer or hire a artist, whatever it is. Those are all methods that companies use and companies have been super successful using those models but for me, to create something that's deep and meaningful and has purpose and people really get behind because it's not this fake Instagram version, or this watered down Instagram version of whatever it is at a badass company like Patagonia or somebody does, right?

Bear Quitagua:
For me, it's the hardest shit in the world to do. For me, understanding how yes, in a sense, it's easier going into a different industry, knowing a little bit of what it takes to build a brand and market and build, but no, in a sense where if you're starting a new brand, it's going to be a 10 year, 20 year affair with trying to grow that thing from seed all the way to a super, strong ass tree and you can't take your eyes off of it because once you do, there's probably something bigger and better right below it. I'm not sure if I answered-

Emily Kwok:
Yeah, I'm super interested in understanding more about this. When you say it's the hardest thing ever, what is so hard about it? When I was listening to you speak, I gather the whole superficial element of building a brand. And I mean, in some ways I would probably even say within jiu jitsu, that's probably really a big reason why I think you guys have been very successful, is because I can see the nuance and attention to detail and the passion behind something, and it's not just about an artificial presentation of what we think this should be, or as I was talking to somebody else earlier today, I think there's brands that emerge that are opportunistic. They see what's in an industry and they think, "Well, how can we make money off of it?"

Emily Kwok:
But maybe the dynamic with Shoyoroll that I see, is maybe it's the opposite. It's something that's emergent that is creating the space from which everyone else is just trying to feed off of. But what is it that makes building a brand so challenging because the other thing that comes to mind is when you were saying, "Well, the founder or the person that's in there is living and breathing and it's almost like a child." I mean, in five to 10 years, let alone 20 years, people even evolve and change, and we see this so much with bands in music. You see the initial album come out and the band is super successful, but then look at that same rock band, maybe 20 years later and they've mellowed out and their vibe has changed. Is the challenge in creating and sustaining a brand, is it in that there are so many moving parts and there's so many parts of the team or the founder that are evolving, in addition to understanding the space? Deconstruct that for me. What is challenging?

Bear Quitagua:
I think it's a little bit of everything you said, and I think that's what makes it the most challenging, right? People can't really gather. There's so many layers and components to a brand and to running a business and those two things, conflict night and day, day to day, minute to minute, hour to hour, and nobody says any of that stuff. And I think that becomes the challenging part, and also going back to what you were saying with a band with 10 or 20 years maturity, you change a little bit. Your songs get written a little different. Maybe you guys look a little different. You're stylized a little different because you're a little bit more mature now, but you're trying to get a lot of new customers, but all your old customers want your new stuff and all your new customers want your old stuff.

Bear Quitagua:
There's so many components to running a brand. And in my eyes, a band is a brand, right? And to me, anything that becomes synonymous or somebody can relate to and built a following, to me, you're a brand. And I think the hardest part is taking your consumer from day one to year 10, to year 20, and finding a common ground between all your old customers and your new customers. And of course, you're going to lose a lot of old customers and you're going to gain a bunch of new customers and there'll be that middle sweet spot of the people that follow you along for the ride. But I think also, I think it's very easy to fall in the trap of just making something because it sells well. Shit, we do it all the time, and I think the best and the biggest companies do that all the time as well.

Bear Quitagua:
But I think there's something to be said when you have a founder, or not even a founder, let's just even say a group of people, of executives or managers, that believe in a few things that carry that throughout the company from a value and a purpose level. And I think that's probably the biggest thing that really, really good companies do compared to an okay company. I think the values and the purpose to what they're trying to do, that's maybe led from the top and as opposed to, "Hey, let's just go make a bunch of things and let's also have a little bit of values and purpose," but it's not there. I think there's a give and take and I think that the best companies and the best brands in the world, they'll hold really, really hard to their values and their purpose and what they're trying to do for their industry, for their culture, for their consumers and for their brand.

Bear Quitagua:
And the opposite would be, "Hey, let's do a little bit of that, but let's sell a bunch of shit." And nothing wrong with that, I just think for me, I think that's what dictates really, really amazing companies, because at the end of the day, if you want to buy a shoe, you can go buy a shoe for $20 that has no label, has a generic label, or you could go buy a pair of Nikes for 60 bucks or 300 bucks, whatever it is. And if the price point is within reach and it's not too far off, I think most of the time the consumer would spend the extra 20 or 30 bucks to buy the pair of Nikes when they could have bought three pairs of the $20 cheaper ones because of what Nike's invested in over a period of time, which a lot of the consumers may see and a lot of the consumers may not see. But I think internally, I think they have a good group of people that silently built, or maybe it shows in five or 10 years, but right away it doesn't show, just as an example.

Emily Kwok:
What makes you stay the course, or what makes you committed to having to manage this complexity because I think about it. The band that goes on tour and then they can't get away from playing their hits from 15 years ago or 20 years ago, when I'm sure for the band or the artist, they are excited about their new work. But as you were saying, not everybody will relate to the new work and you're talking about different generations of followers and fans that cycle through. And you're right, it is exhausting and I haven't built something like Shoyoroll, but I am certainly invested in other businesses and even owning a school is similar. Why keep that school? Why keep that structure when the culture evolves? Technique evolves. Everybody always wants something different.

Emily Kwok:
And these are the more unspoken about challenges, I suppose. You clearly have a skill, a talent, I mean, whatever we want to call it, you've taken a lot of time and taken the space to understand how to build this brand or build any brand for that matter. Why stay committed to Shoyoroll? What do you see in the future for it? What do you see in the future of jiu jitsu? Why not just take what you have learned how to do so well and do the fun part, I guess, which is generate new brands and generate new companies and continue to create without the challenge or difficulty of having to manage what's already there because it's a commitment to see it through.

Bear Quitagua:
You're asking the same questions that I have sleepless nights on every day. Why not do shit a lot easier and make my life completely happy and not miserable and crazy with changing things consistently every day, every week, every year? I think there's two simple answers for that and I think in a nutshell, if we don't do it, who else is going to do it for the culture? And we say the culture and it's the culture of what it is that we do and also for the industry that we're in, but it's also what gives us an edge. I think there's two sides to that part and I think for us, the that's one part of it. I think it gives us an edge and it separates us from the pack and lets us be a little bit more unique.

Bear Quitagua:
And then the second part is, well, shit, if we're not doing that, what the hell? What the hell else am I going to do? Unless Farmers Merchant Bank, or Boeing is like, "Hey, we want to reignite our thing and we need some consultant work." I'm like, "Eh, it's cool but it's not cool," or "You're probably going to pay a stupid amount of money that's cool or not cool, then maybe." I think there's just really two sides and I think it just goes down to we're mature enough and we've known what we've done over time and we know we're probably we have to get better and where we have to grow into.

Bear Quitagua:
And it's something that we understand and we know and it's an industry that we understand. And then our goal is just to build it better, stronger and try and reshape what it is that we know. And if there's anything else outside of that, we always look at it but at the end of the day, we know what we know what we're good at and we know what we suck at and we know where we got to get better at. And I think for us, this industry specifically, is something that we understand and know, and we're just taking and growing that and trying to get better at it every day.

Emily Kwok:
Awesome. This is something that I like to ask everybody? How much do you think luck, execution and timing play into mastery or growth or success for that matter? If you were to look at all those factors, did they have anything to do with why you've been able to grow your companies the way that you have?

Bear Quitagua:
Luck, timing-

Emily Kwok:
Execution,

Bear Quitagua:
... right place, execution. Shit, I don't of know. What is that? 95%? 98%? To pretend if we weren't lucky, if it wasn't the right time and luckily enough, we had decent execution, shit, I would say it's 90% or higher. And of course, once the opportunity presents itself, you have to be able to produce at that period of time. But yeah, I mean, I think it's all of that. I don't pretend like, "Oh, we work so hard and we deserve to be where we're at." The reality is, if a company that just did something similar to where we were at, at that period of time because it was a unique time and there was a need for something that we were offering that was a little different, I think it would be a little silly.

Bear Quitagua:
And I think the reality is, if we probably tried to do something 10 years before that, or five years, the market that may have not been mature enough. And it probably would've been one of those ideas that might've been too early. And if we tried to do this same idea today what we did 15, 20 years ago, we would've been too late. I think luck, timing plays a huge role and I think for us, I think we just got lucky.

Emily Kwok:
Very humble answer.

Bear Quitagua:
It's true. It's true.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. No, I'm not going to disagree with you. It's interesting. A number of people that I've spoken to, I think they land in a very similar place, that they all acknowledge that there has been some luck and timing involved, but to that effect, I also think that preparedness and are you ready to take that challenge on, in that moment? And also, are you game to do it because how many people or how many companies do you see get to a point where they could take off and they're just a little bit gun shy to jump on the horse and ride it? And even in reflection of my own career, when people are like, "Oh, you're a pioneer. You've done this," I'm like, "Not really. I was just chubby when I was 19 and I started doing jujitsu and I've just been doing it for a long time and it just so happened that there weren't a lot of women doing it at that time."

Emily Kwok:
I agree with you that sometimes there is that luck factor. I don't know, maybe as people we like to romanticize the notion of maybe there's something more because it makes for a cooler story somehow, because I suppose that we all want to have this dreamy version of how we can make it to the places that we all want to make it. And maybe the idea of boiling it down to execution and timing and luck is just not that seductive, right? People go, "Oh really? That's it?" But I think with a lot of individuals that I've spoken with, so much of that has been the case. And for some people, in the case of some artists or performers, it's also, "Look, I was in the right room at the right time with the right people and that's what gave me the lift that I needed to get to where I got to." But yeah, there's the factor of preparedness.

Bear Quitagua:
I agree with you as well.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting question to ask people because I always like to see how everyone else relates to it and... Yeah, and for some of us, maybe we've never actually sat down and asked ourselves how we got to where we got to. It's one thing to sort of subjectively live your experience and do what you do day in and day out, but at what point do you still up and reflect on the decisions that you've made to get you where you've gotten to and what do you actually learn from what your actions have been? And so, sometimes it catches people off guard because they haven't really sat back and looked at what happened in their career.

Emily Kwok:
You said much earlier in the podcast that, or actually I think it was when we opened, that you very much relate to still being an apprentice or a beginner. And though it's clear that you have figured some things out and learned a lot in your years of building these brands, how do you relate to the idea of what a master is and what an apprentice is and do you find yourself ever in this role or that role? Which role gives you more comfort? Which one is more exciting because I think that a lot of us, when we start anything, I think most people start whatever their ambition is because they want to try and achieve some level of competence or be good at it. To say that we don't want to be good or we don't eventually want to become masters, I think is sometimes dishonest because we do.

Emily Kwok:
But that being said, I think that when you do achieve some level of competence that it's difficult to sit in the seat of everyone thinking that you know the right answer when, at least for myself, I don't usually think that I have the right answer. I just have accumulated a lot of experience doing things and maybe some of my advice will help you, but I too am just floundering and trying to figure things out as well. How do you relate to the idea of being an apprentice and a master and where do you find yourself in that journey in various places in your life?

Bear Quitagua:
I personally think I would never, ever be a master, personally, and I guess that could be spun around a bunch of different ways. But as far as an apprentice, I think I'll probably be an apprentice for my whole entire life and I think it's also probably what your reference of what you're trying to be, you who you're trying to become. For me, I think especially nowadays, it's just a lot easier to build something so fast just with technology and getting gratification so fast because of social media. I think for me, there's always just this bigger, bigger, bigger world out there and other industries that are just gigantic. I don't normally take things that we do super serious, but also I do, in a sense.

Bear Quitagua:
I think for me, I don't even know what the term master is in my head, to be honest. I just know it's this legendary thing that's done for a long period of time because I don't know of anything that was built amazing in 10 years, to be honest. And if it was built amazing in 10 years, will it last on other 20 years? For me, there has to be a track record of something being done for a very long period of time to be considered, let's call it mastery, in a sense, and I always reference the company, Patagonia, just because of the founder and what he's been able to do for a long period of time and sticking to his guns and Apple would be another great example.

Bear Quitagua:
And I think those are just brands that have stood up and they've picked a position and they've just chased that direction for a long period of time and who knows if they're going to be around for another 50 years? More than likely they probably are, but I think they're good examples of just building really, really, really amazing things for a long period of time and being unique and following what it is that they thought was the right thing. I think that's in anything, craftsmanship or someone that's able to laser focus for artistry for 10, 30, 50 years and just trying to do it. Yeah, apprentice forever and master, look for the biggest people in the world and be like, "Well, one day..." Steve Jobs is a master for doing that for 50 years or 40 years or whatever how long he did it.

Emily Kwok:
Do you think that you are good at anything or that you are better than most people at doing specific things?

Bear Quitagua:
I'm good at breaking the rules. That's about the only thing I'm good at.

Emily Kwok:
All right. That's a good answer.

Bear Quitagua:
I'm good at being a fucking nuisance and that's probably why my brother wanted to punch me in the face every single day for our childhood and our youth. In all honesty, I think that's probably the only thing I'm really good at, is somewhat rebellion and then just I think also just trying to keep an open mind and understanding of what we are today is probably not what we're going to be tomorrow. And just trying to somewhat be able to understand that there's beauty in the youth and the ideas of the youth, whereas now we're just old people and we just think we know everything, but we literally don't know shit because we're so stuck in a structural thing in our head. When you're young and you have youth, you don't have to deal with a lot of those things. You just live.

Emily Kwok:
I remember asking you at one point a while ago, what do you think like you're really good at, and it's funny to hear you say, "Well, I'm really good at breaking the rules<" because I mean, I think that's probably true. It feels authentic, right? It just came out, but if you take that... Something that I have had the privilege and the benefit of learning over the years working with really high level individuals, is that the thing that you are most good at or the thing that is innate to you is a double edged sword because it's usually something that is probably a gift to the world, like your unique angle and your unique ability to share this thing with the world.

Emily Kwok:
But on the flip side, it can also be your Achilles heel. And so, just in my short range perspective of looking at what you have done in terms of building some of the brands that you've built, I think the very nature of a lot of the success has been built around not conforming and not being a part of everything that has already been established, but always trying to deconstruct and do something in a way that maybe we haven't seen before. Bear, I think we found your special skill. I'm going to agree with you wholeheartedly.

Bear Quitagua:
Breaking the rules, right? Who would've thought? I think it's one of those things where it's like... I think sometimes it could get... Like you said, it's a blessing when a curse and I think what happens is... I think that's probably what just irks the shit out of me in anything, that people can't see beyond whatever the norm was at the time and then they look at it in 50 years like, "Oh yeah. It's like this." You're like, "No, fucker. It wasn't like that. Did you know who had to do that so it could be like that?" They're like, "Oh yeah, it's so good now. You're like, "Shit the fuck up. You don't even know how it was fucking 30 years ago or 20 years ago. You better fucking thank that motherfucker did that or that girl or that guy."

Bear Quitagua:
Sometimes there has to be the people that push outside the box and I'm grateful for all those people that in any industry or any culture. But then I also think there's this naiveness of being like, "Well, I'm just a youth, I'm just going to break the rules," and you're like, "Eh, you can do that for five more years and then you got to enter the real world and that shit doesn't work," right?" They're like, "Well, we just want to rebel. We hate the system and this is not fair." Eh, this is real life, buddy, and you better figure out a way to coexist with the rules and learn the game so that way you can, with time, start to figure out how to bend the rules. And then maybe when you're strong enough, then you can break all the rules that you want because now you don't have to worry about some of the other things. And I think the good companies and the good people that have made it, that are not broke and struggling and stubborn, I think they found-

Emily Kwok:
That's real life.

Bear Quitagua:
I think those are the guys that are just super hardcore still and they're like, "That guy sold out and he made money on that," or blah, blah, blah, "but I'm still a hardcore artist. I don't want to get paid that because that's not art," or whatever it is. I think there's a fine line between playing both sides of it and I think there really good guys have been able to be rebellious and stay youthful to a certain extent, but then also understand the structure structural part of, "Okay, this is the system. We have to play with in the system," and going back to what you were saying until they get enough power to change the rules a little more be because they have a little bit more influence. I think those are the good ones.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. I mean I think if there is such thing as a wisdom about rebellion, you've certainly doused us with some. I would say that there's probably an adherence to, or some sense of values or principles with the types of individuals that you're talking about, that succeed at whatever it is that they're doing, that is not just a mindless rebellion and a mindless shit disturbance, but that there's something more behind... There's purpose behind what it is that they're doing. I have one more question to ask you before we wrap things up, because this has been a really insightful discussion. I've really enjoyed getting inside your brain a little bit. And that is, look, I'm sure tons of people out there that are thinking to themselves, "How do they get started," or "How do they get better at what it is that they do?"

Emily Kwok:
In your eyes, from where you started and where you are now, what advice do you have for people who are in pursuit of getting better at something? Maybe they want to be a master one day or maybe they just want to get better at whatever it is that they are focused on right now. What are some of the lessons or advice that you would give to someone who is in that position?

Bear Quitagua:
Look at who your current master is and ask yourself, "Are they the real masters?" Do more research, do more homework and just dig in. I think that's ultimately probably the biggest mistake that a lot of people make. They don't qualify or they don't do a little deeper research on what it is that they're trying to do and I think that's ultimately something that probably, I wish we would've done a little bit more in the beginning, is looking deeper into different things and doing a little bit more research and whoever it is that you're looking up to as your reference and as the highest point. And I think that would probably be my biggest reference is continually digging in to learn more [inaudible 01:13:06]. We're trying to figure out who's bigger and better in the space and learn from them, even though we might think we have the reference dialed in. I'm not sure if that made sense.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah, I think that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Bear, outside of Shoyoroll, which I will of course include links and whatnot, what's happening with Three Chiefs Beer? I just want to give everything you do a little bit of a plug before we wrap it up. Are you guys working on anything big or anything that people should know about?

Bear Quitagua:
Yeah. I mean, I think Three Chiefs Beer is jamming and we're learning along the way and we're trying stuff and I think next year there'll be a bunch of interesting things that we're doing with it. Yeah, and I'm pretty sure there'll be different things that we're playing with. Our VIAMPs doing amazing things with the brand and there should be some fun things going on with Shoyoroll next year as well. There's a bunch of stuff shaking. I don't like to talk about stuff too early until the ideas and the progress and the work works itself out with time, but I'm excited to see what it looks like in a year or two for all the things.

Emily Kwok:
What are the-

Bear Quitagua:
Thank you for having us the time.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. I mean, what are the best ways for people to stay connected? Do you like people to just funnel into the Instagram or do you have much going on with websites and such? What's the best way for people to keep abreast of what you're doing?

Bear Quitagua:
I personally prefer letters written by hand or typewriter, and the address is 2698 St. Louis Avenue, Signal Hill, California, 9055. Stamps, you can get them at the post office. They sell them. I think they're 75 cents or a dollar, or the Forever stamp. But that's honestly my preference as far as communication. And of course, there's the social feeds, but I mean, those are boring, to be honest.

Emily Kwok:
That's awesome. That's awesome. Man, it's been really great to get in your head a little bit, the man behind the green curtain, somewhat. I appreciate you taking the time. I know you're super busy with a lot of things and I'm very grateful that I was able to spend this little bit learning from you. Thank you, Bear.

Bear Quitagua:
You're the best. Thank you for having me on and it's a pleasure to always learn from you and thank you for always being one of the ones that likes to break the rules. I appreciate you.

Emily Kwok:
Yeah. In my weird way, yeah, let's break the rules. Let's continue doing that. All right. Peace. Thank you.

Bear Quitagua:
Thank you. Have a great day.

Emily Kwok:
Thanks.