Welcome to The Master & The Apprentice

This project was a long time in the making, born of the pandemic, a push for growth, serendipity and accumulated experience. I’ve spent many years on the other side of the microphone being invited as a guest on other people’s podcasts. I wasn’t sure I wanted to sit in the interviewer’s seat, but audio has always been a comfortable medium for me, so when I developed an itch to understand something more deeply for myself, I sought out people I could learn from. 

I have personally been curious about studying the transition between learning and mastering in addition to practicing vs. expressing with excellence. It’s a space I’ve been exploring for quite some time. I am exposed to and have the opportunity to work with world class individuals and I always wonder, “How do they do what they do?”, “When did they know they could do it?”.

Simple questions, but one thing I have learned is that it’s a conscious choice for each of these performers to have walked the unusual and exemplary paths they’ve walked. No one story is the same and no single person was just born with their achievements. We like to think that people who do great things were born to do great things, but I ask myself if I think that because it’s easier to accept that then to acknowledge the amount of work that must go into becoming successful.

I decided to make this a limited run podcast for a few reasons. It was very important for me to keep the quality high and I fully respect how much effort podcasters who I admire put into securing great guests. I juggle more than one plate, so I had to own the fact that I didn’t think I could maintain a long term operation. By organizing my project this way, I could also be very deliberate about the type of people I wanted to host. It wanted my guests to reflect my world accurately, which is one that is diverse and unconventional. I hope these stories are the kind of stories you might come back to or pass onto a friend. 

Sharing these conversations with you is a delight because I hope you learn as much from them as I did. I took the extra step of transcribing the episodes because sometimes I like to experience things in dual form. 

There is so much knowledge out there and so many generous souls. All we have to do is seek it out and be willing to receive their insight. Share a moment in time with them and perhaps it will encourage or spark a fire in you.

Thank you to all my incredible guests for taking the time and trust to sit with me. 

And now, I present, The Master & The Apprentice!

Full Transcription:

Hey, there. This is Emily Kwok. Welcome to my very first attempt at putting together a short series podcast called The Master & The Apprentice. I thought I record a little blabbery intro for everyone who has decided to listen in. Most of the time, I think you have probably heard me on the other side of the mic, being a guest on other people's amazing podcasts. And I really enjoy audio as a format. I don't think I quite recognize this, though, until earlier this year, being 2021. I was frequenting the audio app called Clubhouse, and I thought it was an interesting medium, to be able to jump into these different room rooms with some strangers to discuss a particular topic and to see what came out of it.

And something that I quickly started to pick up on was that in all these different rooms where I really didn't know anyone and I was a little shy and hesitant to want to speak myself, I found that, somehow, through what I was listening to and then what other people were hearing in what I had to say, I was making some interesting connections. And I think I'm very much used to having people make connections with me through particular avenues, and the biggest one that's glaring would be through the world of jujitsu. And I've been involved in Brazilian jujitsu for 21, almost 22 years. And when I started it many years ago, I had no idea that it was going to be this much a part of my life. I had no idea that it was going to take over in so many ways, and give me a window of depth that I didn't think that I'd ever have.

And so through this lens of jujitsu in my practice, being a student and a competitor, and then becoming an instructor and a business owner, and then using the things that I've learned, being all of those things, to now coach people outside of jujitsu, I have the opportunity to work with elite athletes in a couple different sports. I also have the opportunity to work with founders, and entrepreneurs, and different types of executives, and professionals. And I'm able to apply a lot of what I've observed and learned through my lens of jujitsu into their world, and help them optimize a lot of their own processes.

So here I was floating around these random rooms earlier in 2021, and I was meeting people, and I was really inspired by them. And there were a handful of people that really took me by surprise, and I formulated relationships offline with them. And this is when we were still in quite a bit of a COVID lockdown. So you could say that we didn't have the liberty to be out and about as much as we're trying to do these days. And I found myself really finding audio as a medium, as a really interesting space for me. As I started to go into rooms that I would frequent more often, or that I would start hosting rooms, I started to think about this idea of, "Well, is it so hard for me to put together a discussion on a topic that's interesting for me, selfishly?"

And here I was having access to these really cool, and I would say established, and successful, and knowledgeable, and passionate individuals. And I thought, "Man, selfishly, I want to talk to these people a little bit more deeply. I have questions that I'd like to ask them, and I'm not sure if everyone else in the room wants to hear that." And so the idea for me to put together this podcast was spurned out of the fact that I met a few individuals who were not just deeply successful in one medium or one form, but they were in fact successful in a few different ways. And so that was very curious to me.

So I thought, "Well, what is there to that?" And I also have the pleasure and the ability to work amongst people who do this as well, who've excelled, not just in one thing, but excelled in multiple things. And so I thought to myself, "What is that? Is that a gift? Is that something that people are just born with? Or is there something more to it?" And in my own experience, I suppose I'd like to say, you're not just born with it. You can actually work for it. But I was very curious to explore what the story would tell me based on who I was speaking to and what this individual had focused and worked on for most of their life.

And so this idea of creating a podcast where I could interview high level individuals, and just get to know them, and get to understand their story, how did they end up in this place where maybe we are in a position to admire the work that they've done? Or we've had the opportunity to experience something that they've shared with the world. And we're in a time, I think, where creativity's extremely important.

And so I thought I would dive into that.

And so the idea of The Master & The Apprentice, for me, I think at the time I was reading through the book Mastery by Robert Green. And I was reading about old relationships of masters and apprentices, particularly within the art world. And hundreds of years ago, when you'd have some of these great masters creating their artworks, even though we attribute these works to a singular individual, when you read and you learn about how these pieces were created, a lot of times they had a number of apprentices and helpers working under them. So they were doing under paintings or they were in particular areas, or they were putting detail into certain spots.

And so I thought it was curious to explore, well, what makes somebody an apprentice or a student versus a master or an expert? Is there even such a thing? How do we relate to these notions? Because I, myself, have a very hard time relating to the fact that I would be considered a teacher or an expert in something because, many days, I feel like I don't know anything, but that's not to say that I can't acknowledge the fact that I've done something longer than most people would.

So I started making a bit of a roster of people who I thought would be cool to talk to, and that's where the idea was born. So in thinking about how this whole series is going to unravel, I thought it would be cool to maybe just set a bit of a framework in terms of asking myself and maybe asking you, what is it that you love about being a student or an apprentice? And in my eyes, what I've loved about being a student. And I think that so much of it now I reflect on because it's something that I can acknowledge as opposed to not being able to acknowledge it. And what I mean by that is, a lot of times, when we're learning things, perhaps when it's the first time that we've really taken something on deeply, we're subjectively just doing it and experiencing it. I think we have a hard time seeing it for what it is.

And I understand, in a weird way, if this sounds strange, what it is to be a student now, I think a little bit better. Before, I think I would just say I'm just learning stuff, but I like to take the role on of being a student because I think sometimes in my career with what I do, I am looked to as the person that knows, or the person that will be a good resource or be able to help and to someone that's reliable. And I have to say that as much as I appreciate that there is also a part of me that doesn't want that responsibility. There's a part of me that loves being able to explore.

And so I think as I delved into this space of what it truly meant to be a student, I really had to own this idea of, "Hey, as a student, I can take a backseat and experiment, and I can play, and I don't have to be right. And I don't have to know what the hell's going on." And I think that's an important thing to do. It's an important place to get to, or in my case, get back to or evolve to because the moment you start to know something, or the times in which people look to you to know something, there is sometimes that little bit of pressure that takes the experience of being free and playing away from you because now there is this feeling of, "Oh, well, Emily will have the answer for this. Or if I watch Emily do it, she'll know how to do it better than me."

And I'm not saying that I don't value and appreciate what that is, but I do sometimes really enjoy not knowing what the fuck I'm doing, and being able to laugh about it, and being able to try it again, and knowing that I'm going to continue sucking at it for a little while. I think there's also something really nice as a student about being able to go broad, but then also being able to go deep, and allowing your intuition, and allowing your intrinsic motivation figure out what you feel like exploring. In some ways, when you are in that space of learning, it allows you to really let yourself be.

Are you somebody that wants to take every tube of paint and dab a little bit of each color on the canvas, or are you someone that wants to take one color and explore how many different shades of lightness or darkness you can get out of it? What happens if you take that color and you start mixing it in a different

way? What happens if you layer it? So going broadly versus going deeply, understanding what that relationship is, and observing how you work. Sometimes when you're a little bit more advanced, it's not as easy to you go broad and deep. Sometimes you get a little bit pigeonholed and people expect you to just know a lot about this one thing, or they know that you're really good at covering a bunch of different topics, so they see you as a brilliant generalist. And sometimes you can get a little bit locked into your role or your positions because of that.

So I would encourage you, if you haven't already, to think about what it means to be a student, to think about that as you listen through this series because each and every one of the people that I interviewed was a student of whatever their art or their craft is. They all had to be in the same seat that you are in, and I'm in, and everybody else is in, where they didn't know anything. And they had to find something that would continue keeping them on the path towards whatever their greatness is. And so being a student is a thing. It's not just something that you take on because you suck. It's sometimes a role that we crave. And I think in recording this series, it's made me really think that I really enjoy being a student, and I need to be a student more.

I also ask myself what is the relationship to the word master or mastery or expert, and do I see myself that way? Do these guests see themselves that way? And I think everyone has their own interpretation and orientation towards these words. And in my case, there's many times where I don't feel like I know anything.

Years ago, I was driving around with a friend and as we were trying to get to the destination, they were driving and I was in the passenger seat. And as they were trying to make the turns and drive, I was trying to guide them. And as I was guiding them, I think either the tone of my voice or what I was saying had greatly frustrated this person. And in the middle of our drive, this person turned to me and said, "Shut up." And I was like, "Oh, dude, sorry. I didn't mean to fluster you."

And so when we arrived at our destination, a few minutes passed, and then my friend came up to me and said, "Hey, I just want to say, I'm sorry for snapping at you in the car." And I said, "Okay, cool. I didn't mean to upset you. I'm really sorry if I was being too pushy or if I said something inappropriate." And they said, "No, you didn't do any of that. I just have to say that you remind me a lot of my older sister, and my sister and you are very similar." And I said, "How so?"

And she said, "Well, you and my sister have this way of just always knowing what's going on. And you think very quickly and you can arrive at conclusions much more quickly that I ca. My mind just doesn't work like that. And so sometimes when you're talking to me or we're in a situation where there's a bit of pressure, you end up making me feel like you're my older sister. And I guess I just reacted to that. And so I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that. It just feels like you always know what's going on or you always know what to do." And I said, "What's funny about that is I really don't know what the fuck I'm doing most of the time." And I said, "Perhaps you mistake or you feel some stability or confidence in the fact that I'm totally okay not knowing what the fuck is going on and being okay looking like an idiot or asking somebody for help because I don't know."

And I think there's something to that where if we're really honest with ourselves, most of us don't like to be in situations where we don't know what's going on, especially as we "adult" and we get older, particularly, I think, if we even have leadership roles, in some ways feels wrong or counterintuitive to say I don't know or I don't have a plan.

And I think, for me, what I have come to is that being able to express that vulnerability, being naked in that moment, being okay with maybe fully embracing what it is to be evolving, be a student, I think that is what, if this makes any sense, helps you be more of that expert or that master because you've given your ego up to saying my will and my desire to learn more, and to learn more deeply, and to

understand, and to have more context is more important than me trying to project that I know what is going on right now. And that perhaps what we're really looking for in life is a level of depth that can only be achieved with a great amount of vulnerability and authenticity in the moment.

And so it was interesting when I questioned a lot of my guests on what it meant to be a master or an expert to hear their very different answers on it. But just like I appreciate being a student, doing this podcast also made me think about what I appreciate about the experience I've accumulated doing what I do. I'm pretty grateful to have found something that's carried me this far. I certainly didn't expect that it would. So I think it's worth saying that sometimes when you find that love for whatever it is that you do, there may not be a clear path ahead of you, but that if you follow that love, and if you listen to that inner voice, it can often lead you down paths that you could never have dreamed of.

Having that ability and going on that journey also has given me, I think, a level of nuance, like you're able to see a lot more in a lot less because when you've traveled that road, and you've stumbled over your own feet many times, and you had to crawl on the ground, and sort through the weeds, you can't help but notice everything after that. And so, to that I say, when you are able to find that pathway into the dark and into the deep, and it's something that you really, really love, it's a real gift. And again, it makes me crave the idea of being a student. These two ideas are so intertwine because, in some ways, now that I know something, I want to know nothing. And from knowing nothing, I will learn so much more, especially as I think about taking on more and more disciplines.

Some of you may know that I'm trying to learn how to surf a little bit. I've also really picked up cooking a lot over the last couple years, and it's really pretty cool to coherently and consciously go into learning how to surf and learning how to cook with complete curiosity and abandon and take on that role of being a student. I am the most annoying student because I ask a lot of questions. But something that I've also noticed that's really cool is that I'm much more willing to take on feedback and criticism in ways that I definitely could not have done 20 years ago or even 10 years ago, for that matter, because when I didn't know that I was a student, when I couldn't really discern this for myself, I feared feedback, and I would think that criticism and feedback was an attack on me.And now that I've separated myself from that, and I can say, "Hey, this is me being a student, this is me learning, I've learned to welcome what that criticism is because I understand that it'll only help me improve and get better."

In terms of how I selected the roster of guests, I was initially working through people that I knew. And then, through some of the various people that I was meeting, I thought about people who, selfishly, I just wanted to have a closed door conversation with because I was learning all sorts of cool things. And sometimes I wondered whether the public formats, particularly on a big audio app, were the most appropriate places for me to hog the discussion. So, selfishly, I reached out to individuals who I was very curious about because I wanted to get inside their head and understand what they saw if I could.

So very graciously, I started lining up a handful of guests. And then I started looking at other people I knew around me, different people that I'd met over the years, and also close friends who have gone on to become very successful at what they do. And I didn't necessarily have a plan of who all these people were going to turn out being, but it's cool to look at what's emerged, which is I've got a really great collection of pretty equally balanced males and females, a lot of different ethnicities, and professions. And so most of them are grouped into creatives of some sort, whether that has to do with music or art, and also elite athletes. I also find this relationship pretty fascinating because a lot of martial artists or elite athletes also tend to be creative and artistic in some way. So I question what it is about these two realms that are so interconnected. But I hope you guys will be able to pick up on some of that as you listen to the series.

As I just wrap up this short intro, I really hope that you guys enjoy what I've put together. I should mention that I decided to only put together a short series, which is 10 guests that I'm recording because

there is also a concern for me of keeping the quality high. And for those of you that may be familiar with some of my work and my life, I am a woman who does many things and wears many hats, hopefully, with style and poise. But between being a partner to some, being a mother to three, being my own student, I'm still maintaining my own curiosities and hobbies.

I wasn't sure that I wanted to make podcasting my thing. Not that it can't be, or wouldn't be, but this was my first foray into it. And I've been very careful in my life to try very hard. I'm not always successful, but I try to not over promise and under deliver. And so I wanted this initial series to be something that would be high quality, something that would be interesting and engaging for people to listen to, and leave that as a launching point to see if I wanted to potentially do a round two, or three, or who knows. And also just to see if I enjoyed this process because I understand that it's pretty involved.

I have to thank Steve Kwan from BJJ Mental Models for helping me produce this, and really hold my hand, and walk me through a lot of the stages because, like I said, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. And he's been a great friend and someone who has really encouraged me also to get out there and do this. And I need that too because I get very self-conscious about putting things out there sometimes. I know some of you re like, "What?" Because it seems like I'm always out there, but this is new for me, and it's a bit scary because this is a living artifact. It's going to be left out there. So his encouragement and support was really important.

Well, I'm sure you guys will take a lot of things away, or at least I hope you do. But two of the big lessons that I think I also was able to pull away was that there's no one way to do anything. As you listen to everyone's stories, you will hear about all the various attempts and outcomes, some successes and many, many failures to find the right path. And I think that's important to note because I think for many of us, we look and we want to find the way, the most efficient way, or the simple way, or the way that's just going to get it done. We want to find the shortcut. And from talking with each of these individuals, you just come to learn and respect that there is no way. You got to find that shit on your own. And I hope that you're able to really take on everybody's perspective, and really listen deeply to their experiences because I learned a lot from each and every one of these people.

Also, I say this a lot to my students, particularly the ones that start out when they look a little overwhelmed and unsure about what jujitsu or what taking this discipline on will do for them. And I know that some people find it hard to relate to me because they think, "Oh, but you've been doing this for so long, or you're a legend, or you're this, or you're that." And I remind them that 21 years ago, I had never done this before either. And the biggest difference between me and them is that I just didn't stop doing this crazy thing. And so for any person that has decided to try and take something on, to know that if you just don't quit. You will end up somewhere. And I know that we need to hear that, probably more often than not because think we lose sight of that.

Some of the best and most notable performers, and leaders, and thinkers in the world today are not carbon copies of each other or anyone else. We certainly have our mentors and we certainly have our masters that help guide our way. But at heart, I think so much of The Master & Apprentice is about exposing each person's unique individual journey. And so, with that, I really, really hope you enjoy the series. I selfishly enjoyed all the discussions for myself. And so if nobody listens to what we've put out there, that is totally fine with me because I set out doing this wanting to know what I know. Sounds like a strange saying, but there's all these thoughts and all these things that I question, whether, am I crazy for thinking this? Or how did I arrive at this conclusion? And does this make sense to anybody else? And gee, am I the only one that's feeling this, or thinking this?

And working in the field that I do, sometimes I need to figure out where my conviction and confidence comes from. And so I think having all these discussions was a way for me to bounce the ball around in the dark for myself. And I have to say, I'm really excited and pleased with what has turned out. I hope you are too. And please feel free to leave me feedback. I would love to hear it. I cringe listening to myself a little bit, but again, we all got to start somewhere. So with that, I say, thank you so much for listening to my brief intro. And I hope you enjoy the series.

Peace out.